009\'s in stock engines - performance or poo-formance?

ratty 63 · 2005-07-06T02:58:38+00:00

Hi all, Heres something I have been wondering for a while, but something came up during the week that made me ask this question.... I feel that the 009 in my 1200 has caused what little performance the engine had to turn to poo-formance...read on and see if you can help/suggest anything.... I understand that the mechanical advance only style dissys have their place in the VW world - particularly in engines with BIG cams that have an unstable vacuum signal at lower revs, but are they really the best alternative in standard (or near standard) engines? My reason for asking this question is: I used to run an original style (big) dissy in my 1200 powered '63 bug. It worked fine, but the points eventually required replacement. Upon enquiring about replacement parts I was told to 'stop mucking about with that shi...er...rubbish and stick an 009 in it' (to quote my brother, who works as a VW mechanic). I just happened to have a second hand 009 in a collection of stuff that I had been given by a friend after he sold his VW collection, so I fitted it with a new set of points and a new condensor and dropped it into my 1200. Yep - it runs, but it just doesn't seem to have the same torque as it did when it had the vac advance dissy in it - not that 1200's have a lot of torque - which is just my point - when you have very little power/torque, any loss is noticed. Initially I thought that it was just my perception so I left the 009 in the car. I still wondered just how good it was, but it ran reliably so ...if it aint broke.... During the week, a friend of mine (and fellow forum member) reinstalled his 1200 in his car and had a few minor problems getting it to run reliably (another story), during the fault finding process (done verbally, over the counter whilst I was making pizzas at work) he mentioned that his engine seemed to be lacking something - ever since fitting the 009....hmmmm - sound familliar? Has anyone else noticed this? I feel that the smaller engines really suffer when they don't have the vacuum advance as they appear to rely on the changes in load (and manifold vacuum) to change the advance and therefore generate the torque that you REALLY need in the 1200/1300 engines. I would be interested to hear what others have done in regards to this problem (no - I'm not interested in upgrading the size of the engine, so don't even suggest it!) Is converting back to a mechanical and vacuum dissy the best way to go? Any particular model work better? Could I mod the 009 to give me better performance or should I just bin it? Oh yeah, I should mention that I have tried a couple of different 009's in this car recently with no major change, so I don't believe that the 009 is faulty. ...or should I be looking somewhere else for the problem? Everything is adjusted to specs and the car is capable of sitting on 120km/h for hours (as long as there are no hills!) so I feel that the engine is in good shape, but it just doesn't feel right.... OK, over to you - any suggestions greatfully recieved. R 🙂 PS: The car is still 6V and will be staying that way - if it was 12V it would have had my EFI/engine management system installed long ago which does allow for spark maps to be changed, and it also takes into account engine load when calculating the spark timing....

Midlife crisis Nartispuddlejumper, Bureau of Toxicity

2,282 posts · joined May 2003 · 16 Aug 2005, 11:47 am

#398139

Glad to hear you bit your tougne hope it did not bled.

Marc

If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH

Ellabella Seriously Crusin Dubber

152 posts · joined Jul 2005 · 22 Oct 2005, 12:21 pm

#420281

is a 010 the older style mech adance dissy???

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 23 Oct 2005, 9:02 pm

#420836

Ellabella wrote:is a 010 the older style mech adance dissy???

my understanding is that the 010 is an aftermarket dissy that was similar to the 009, but a different advance curve - usually better suited to the Air cooled engines. I believe that they have not been available for some time now and this is why everyone is using 009's.

Feel free to correct me if this isn't correct....

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

jo_tas Custom Title Time!

1,547 posts · joined Aug 2004 · 25 Oct 2005, 9:33 pm

#421658

Interesting..

Both my mechanic (one of the most well known VW mechanics in tassie), and the guy i bought the fastback wreck from, were trying to convince me i should be running a 009.

I've been stubborn, saying "If thats how it was designed, and how it should be, then why change it"
I felt like the idiot, now i feel like the smart one!😂

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 27 Oct 2005, 2:24 pm

#422184

I tend to agree with you Jo_tas - the factory did things for a reason, and whilst new technology and research can make improvements, I'm not certain that the 009 is always an improvement.

Here is an interesting story though: My Brother recently changed my Grandmothers '68 Beetle from a vac/mech dissy to a 009 as he was having major problems with the engine pinging (its a fairly new 1600 engine now). This change cured the pinging problem, but now it wont idle smoothly when cold (something that I have noticed does happen when running a 009)....so perhaps the 009 does have its place on some engines.... I was particularly interesed in the smaller engines (1200's) as this is what I have in my '63.

In your situation; if your vac/mech dissy is still working OK, leave it alone (if it aint broke....😀)

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 27 Oct 2005, 9:51 pm

#422295

VWCOOL wrote:I don't think anyone has mentioned compression ratios yet 😉

You jokers don't really think a 009 will work on a stocker... or do you?

Pay your debts, CxxT

jo_tas Custom Title Time!

1,547 posts · joined Aug 2004 · 27 Oct 2005, 10:18 pm

#422331

Well there was nothing at all wrong with my distributor.. but they were still telling me i should have a 009... 🙅

And when the disitributor that came with the car (factory vacuum/mech advance) died due to the plate that the point screw to coming loose, i went out of my way and got one interstate from a very generous person from this board, free of charge. (name escapes me now.. sorry if you know who you are!)
Swapped over a few bits from my distributor, cleaned it all up, and now it runs very well, hasn't had a flat spot in the last 6-8 months and idles very smoothly, even when cold!

When we were going for a test run even my mechanic (a 009 man) was surprised at how much power it had for a stock 1600! Pulls very well when crusing along at 60mph and go to overtake.. can push you back in the seat and rush up to 70mph and beyond.. was passing someone the other day on a flat section of a 2 lane highway and before i knew it i was doing around 80mph.. lol..

009 on stock engines? WHY??? we're always praising those great german engineers.. so why not give them some credit and use what they intended for these engines!!

56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 28 Oct 2005, 6:38 am

#422398

The "009 mechanic" probably wanted your old vac dizzy for himself

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

72FASTY Commited Dubber

74 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 28 Oct 2005, 3:10 pm

#422551

Well ive recently bought a new 1600TP import engine, whilst running a 009. There is a very noticeable flat spot off idle up to about 2200rpm. I had to return it to the mechanic about 3 times till it was driveable. Even then there was a noticable dull zone. I am thinking of purchasing a SVDA dizzy this weekend, so if i do, ill let you all know the difference it makes. (hopefully good)

I can do skids.
In the Wet.
On Oily surfaces.

72FASTY Commited Dubber

74 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 31 Oct 2005, 9:17 am

#423225

I went and splurged $190 on the SVDA dizzy, and what a difference it makes.

Firstly, The engine is new and mostly stock, with completely rebuilt carbs. The only change is a slightly longer duration cam, but it is very very mild. After putting the new dizzy in and enjoying the experience of trying to statically time it without a notch on the dist rim, i managed to get it close enough. Anyway, i went for a drive and the difference was very noticable. Driveability A+++++. No flat spot at all and i can pull hills from a lower RPM a lot easier. I will attempt to time it more accurately this week but from what i have seen so far, i am very happy with my purchase!

(P.S Anyone got any ideas on how to statically time a dist with no markings on the dist rim???) 🤪)

I know the answer will make me feel suitably stupid.

I can do skids.
In the Wet.
On Oily surfaces.

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 2 Nov 2005, 12:51 am

#423940

72FASTY wrote:I went and splurged $190 on the SVDA dizzy, and what a difference it makes.

...where did you purchase that from as I wouldn't mind a new one!

Firstly, The engine is new and mostly stock, with completely rebuilt carbs. The only change is a slightly longer duration cam, but it is very very mild. After putting the new dizzy in and enjoying the experience of trying to statically time it without a notch on the dist rim, i managed to get it close enough. Anyway, i went for a drive and the difference was very noticable. Driveability A+++++. No flat spot at all and i can pull hills from a lower RPM a lot easier. I will attempt to time it more accurately this week but from what i have seen so far, i am very happy with my purchase!

Thats the exact same result as my 1200 in my '63 - drove it through the mountains behind the Gold Coast on Sunday (the first time it has not done highway work in a long time) and I was amazed - more torque from much lower in the rev range - only had to shift back to 2nd gear twice all day (both times when I had to slow going uphill for a 1600cc Beetle fitted with a 009! 😁 )

(P.S Anyone got any ideas on how to statically time a dist with no markings on the dist rim???) 🤪)

I know the answer will make me feel suitably stupid.

I'm going to answer this question with the little knowledge that I have (I am not a mechanic - only an enthusiast that does all his own work) - if anyone else would like to add to or correct what I have written - please do....

The mark on the distributor rim is the No 1 cylinder mark...if it isn't there, then there is not much you can do about it (it shouldn't make any difference as long as you get the ignition leads in the correct order (from what I have read))

Turn the engine over until it is at TDC on cylinder No 1 (the mark on the pully is at the top and in line with the centre join in the block), then turn it anti-clockwise until it lines up with the left hand side of the 'block' that is on the top of the case - this will give you about 7 degrees advance (this is where I set all my engines and it works fine for me - some people set the engines at 0 deg, but I find that my car will be sluggish if set at 0 deg - use a little trial and error to work out what works for your engine. Just make sure that it doesn't ping!)

OK, switch your ignition on (warning lights on, but engine not running) and take your trusty 12 volt test lamp and connect one end to a ground point and touch the probe to the coil terminal that the points wire is connected to. Hopefully the light should be off, however if it isn't, rotate the distributor anti-clockwise until it is (and then a little further).

Now, with the test lamp still connected slowly turn the distributor clockwise. Stop when (as soon as) the test lamp illuminates. Tighten the distributor clamp (ensuring that the distributor does not turn as you tighten the clamp) - Your engine is now statically set at 7 degrees advance.

Does this help? I can post pics (like a how to) if it would make it clearer...

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

72FASTY Commited Dubber

74 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 2 Nov 2005, 2:11 pm

#424090

hey rossco,

I got mine from Micks Motors in brissy. I think it was $192.50 inc GST.

That sounds like what i was thinking about doing the other day re: timing it. However, i went out and purchased a timing strobe, and set it to around 30 at full advance. It feels a tiny bit more sluggish than what it was before i timed it properely (it was waaaaaay too advanced), so i might go a tiny bit further and see how that goes. As youve probably read elsewhere, the general consensus among VW gods seems to be that you should time them at full advance (3500prm ish) then let the static advacne fall where it may (typically 5-10 degrees). Experimenting with different advances will give me the best result no doubt.

Still poo's all over the 009 tho! 😁

I can do skids.
In the Wet.
On Oily surfaces.

PrettyBlueBug Almost over it...

2,032 posts · joined May 2005 · 4 Nov 2005, 8:06 am

#424731

Wow... talk about a good read! Why haven't I looked in this section earlier?

I'm wanting electronic ignition in my Beetle, it has a vac-advance dizzy. Wouldn't go near a 009, even more so after reading this thread! But I'm sure with tuning etc, they'd work good.

ratty 63 Custom Title Time!

1,083 posts · joined Oct 2003 · 4 Nov 2005, 11:04 am

#424786

Mick motors hey, looks like I had better add a new one to my list of stuff to get from them next time I am up there!

PBB, the 009 definatly does have its place in the VW world, just not in stock standard engines (in my opinion 🙂 ) - the idea of going to an electronic ignition is a good one - no points = one less thing to adjust/wear out/replace. I would go to an electronic ignition module too, but as far as I know they don't make them for 6 volt cars (and my Baja is EFI with full engine management - in other words, the engine computer controls the spark timing!)

It's interesting to see that I am not the only person that had just been 'putting-up' with the 009 distributors....

Cheers all,

R 🙂

40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements 😂

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Founding member of the Gold Coast Dub Club Inc. 🙂

Midlife crisis Nartispuddlejumper, Bureau of Toxicity

2,282 posts · joined May 2003 · 4 Nov 2005, 11:22 am

#424791

I put the SVDA I had in the 1600TP but sadly the dissy was not much good, The shaft moves up and down by about 15 mm and does not return all the way back after advancing. I put it in anyway and the BAJA pinged really bad and ran s%$t House so I will have to save up to buy a new SVDA, because I like the idea of duel advance and reading whats happened in this thread seems the way to go.

Marc

[ Edited on 4-11-05 by Midlife crisis ]

If you can't laugh at yourself you can't laugh at anyone else! Because life is to short not to LAUGH