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Big brakes for Beetle NOW WITH EVEN MORE PICS!!

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pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#368617
I'm really only interested in the falcon rear brakes. The brakes I have for the front are already bordering on too big. Buggies have no weight in the front, so instant lock up is a real issue.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

jakjones Officially Full-On Dubber

217 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#368710
VWCOOL wrote:This would be far better than the usual welded hubs....

wTF wich part of the hubs is usually welded ?

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#368714
MikeM wrote:Are the rear hubs custom units as well or are they machined down VW units of some sort?
As with most disc rear conversion I have seen, they are Type 3 VW components that have been welded, machined and restudded. I also added a sleeve/spigot added to the 'nose' as I wish to have the weight of the car supported by the spigot rather than the wheel studs. Although I personally have no issue with welded and restudded hubs, I am aware of rego/engineering certification 'resistance' to hubs modified in this manner. It is my plan/ambition to have new one-piece hubs manufactured when I am confident they will a) work and b) I can sell enough to justify my $ investment in design/tooling costs!

[Edited on 8/6/2005 by VWCOOL]

Edit: The modified hubs mentioned and pictured here, fitted to my own car, are for my own testing/development purposes only - the are NOT intended for sale!!!

nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
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Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#368749
For the rear hubs you can turn down some drums I think.
Jon

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#368844
jakjones wrote:
VWCOOL wrote:This would be far better than the usual welded hubs....

wTF wich part of the hubs is usually welded ?
The 'old' holes for the wheel bolts. Plus, the back of the drive plate to build=up the rear surface so all five new studs (PCD change) sit at the same height... Of course, if you retain the VW stud pattern the welding isnt required. But for Porsche, Holden or Ford, it is
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56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#392938
OK VWCOOL,

What's the latest news?

How long before we can buy these suckers?

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#392971
56astro wrote:OK VWCOOL,

What's the latest news?

How long before we can buy these suckers?


I am still racking up kays on the prototype (my own car) in between doing my 'real' job and doing a couple of engine installations. Last weekend I installed my freshened 1916 engine into my own car (Oval/IRS) and am running-in, in preparation for the Eastern Creek Powercruise this weekend. I HOPE I can get out there and punish these big vented bastards for all they are worth! Fingers crossed...

Good news for nuts Type 3 owners... I am working on making these big vented brakes fit Type 3s, too. GTMac and I did a WRX engine conversion in his Fasty and it needs these brakes as part of his Engineering Certificate for legal rego in NSW.

However, my machinist is a little busy... As of last Friday, he can't tell me when he can have the first Type 3 front stub axles completed. But, that's good news for any T3 owners who wish to have big horsepower and the brakes to match.

As pictured in this thread, my car is currently using 15x6-inch AU Falcon wheels. I made the choice at the time for several reasons: a) to eliminate the need for a stud pattern change with my chosen Falcon-spec discs (saves on machining $) and b) the Falcon 114.5mm PCD allows a choice of offsets for different cars (to suit flared guards etc) thanks to the fact that EA-EL and AU Falcons have different backspaces (approx 95mm and 125mm).

However, in practice, I have found that the AU rim with front 205/60 tyres is not quite the 'perfect' fit that I thought it would be for cars, especially on Beetles with lots of caster and camber, such as my own. Test-mounting EA-EL rims show that although my intentions were good - and I'm not 100% sure yet - they look to widen the track too far, even for 'wide' guards.

For standard guards, the wheels really need to be out another 10mm or so to keep the tyre from fouling the BJ beam shock tower. I do not wish to use spacers so I am considering a change to a Commodore/BMW stud pattern that will give me another 3-5mm clearance. (which you may recall from earlier in the thread, is what I considered in the first place!).

Since I did all my initial measurements, I have discovered that different Commodores have different offsets/backspaces depending on model. I will need to check all this. I did my measurements with 1997-on VT series rims with a 42P offset, but other model rims with a 37P offset rims should be a better fit under std VW guards and get me 9mm more clearance compared to the 46P rims I have now.

This is something that I wish to trial on my own car... but the machinist is busy... so I will have to wait a while longer until he can re-stud my custom hubs. The downside to the Commodore stud pattern is that the rotors will be 'custom' with a Holden PCD and not simply off-the-shelf Falcon items.

I am also investigating having rear hubs manufactured for the Falcon-based rear discs that I wish to supply to match the vented fronts. I am aware there are 'blank' hubs available elsewhere, but there is a considerable wait for supply and I wish, if possible, to use a hub design with the wheel located 'hub centric' using the centre hole of the rim for centricity, rather than being 'stud centric' relying on the wheel studs for location of the wheel.

My own car is running a prototype of this 'spigot' type of hub based on a Type 3 drive flange. My machinist is sourcing a quote from one of his suppliers and I have another shop in Sydney that I need to check with. Doing the hub centre splines is a specialised process not usually undertaken by most machinists.

In the meantime, investigations AND testing continues...

It's a bit frustrating isn't it!

nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
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56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#392977
VWCOOL wrote:It's a bit frustrating isn't it!
Nowhere near as much for me as it would be for you.

:thumb

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#392983
Che Castro wrote:For the rear hubs you can turn down some drums I think.
Yes, that is agood way to do it, but you still have the original four holes that must be welded shut if you want a stud pattern change..
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Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#392993
you can get blanks that have no webbing on the back but are thicker overall than the webbed factory ones.
Jon

rose doin it for d girls

2,036 posts · joined Dec 2004 ·

#393116
I think they use the same brakes on VN commodore and they never stopped any good. And also I think the front brakes are also used on 1979 Sigma this is not good.
:jesus

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#393158
rose wrote:I think they use the same brakes on VN commodore and they never stopped any good. And also I think the front brakes are also used on 1979 Sigma this is not good.
:jesus
You think... uh, yes, as you read in the thread, they're VN-VS Commodore (or Corvette) callipers, designed by PBR for a 1500kg car fitted with a 250hp V8. They should be easily capable of stopping a 850kg Beetle with 150hp, wouldn't you agree?
nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#393359
pete wood wrote:I'm really only interested in the falcon rear brakes. The brakes I have for the front are already bordering on too big. Buggies have no weight in the front, so instant lock up is a real issue.
If your front brakes are too big, fitting discs to the rear will - technically - not assist you, per se. Think about it this way: Adding bigger brakes to the rear without reducing effort at the front will unload the fronts... resulting in even earlier lock-up...

Let me guess... Buggy... you have larger-diameter tyres on the front than the rear? I reckon you need to adjust the bias by installing a bias valve. Cheaper than rear discs and probably a better result

nn[ Edited on 4-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
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malcolm Insano Dub Head

812 posts · joined Nov 2004 ·

#393727
vwcool if you weld the orignal holes on the hub it is illegal in vic and maybe in other states

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#393778
malcolm wrote:vwcool if you weld the orignal holes on the hub it is illegal in vic and maybe in other states
Yes, as mentioned in this thread, welded hubs are not accepted for legal rego, even though it is a practice that has been going on for eons. Any welded suspension/steering/etc component is a big no-no. That is why I am attempting to source brand-new blank rear hubs
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VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#400393
For all those that have been following this thread, I will have my Oval with these prototype brakes fitted at Sawtell this weekend. Some components are still under development etc, but come and take a look if you want. Ask me nicely, and I'll be happy to take a wheel off for a closer look. Jeez, I might even take you for a drive...!nn[ Edited on 23-8-2005 by VWCOOL ]
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PrettyBlueBug Almost over it...

2,032 posts · joined May 2005 ·

#400530
I don't even have a racing Beetle and I want these brakes! Poor 'lil Bug loves to lock up. 🙁

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#400590
VWCOOL wrote:If your front brakes are too big, fitting discs to the rear will - technically - not assist you, per se. Think about it this way: Adding bigger brakes to the rear without reducing effort at the front will unload the fronts... resulting in even earlier lock-up...

Let me guess... Buggy... you have larger-diameter tyres on the front than the rear? I reckon you need to adjust the bias by installing a bias valve. Cheaper than rear discs and probably a better result
I think you mean larger tyres on the fron than the back. I have already gone to a slightly smaller bore caliper on the front, (same size pad) and it helped. Having said that, I still want rear discs at some stage.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#400595
Pretty_Blue_Bug wrote:I don't even have a racing Beetle and I want these brakes! Poor 'lil Bug loves to lock up. 🙁
I assume you mean in normal conditions...? It shouldn't do that. Some of us on here have doen track time/racing successfully with standard Beetle and Type 3 brakes with nothing more than a front pad change. No lockup pulling a Beetle up from 140km/h+ when all is perfect...
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seagull Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,979 posts · joined Dec 2003 ·

#400680
VWCOOL
I have the jig to hold the ford backing plate in the lathe > this allows you to hold and machine the center out and thickness >allowing direct bolt up to vw .

I also have two jigs ( hardend quality steel ) for the pcd holes for Australian & over seas cars ( no can do wide 5 ) the hole jigs fit the ford disk or ( type three flange ) allowing you to drill the disk or blank hub to your PCD required .
Let me know if your interested as I no longer are making my kits in the west , seagull
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#440010
Type 3 kit will be finished real soon! I will be installed on a WRX-powered Fastback that I have been involved with.

As for the Beetle versions of these brakes - I have now racked up close to 4000km on the street and couldn't be happier with thier faultless performance

The only thing that disappoints me is the time that it has taken to get this far with the kits' development... but almost there!


[ Edited on 20-12-2005 by VWCOOL ]
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DIY-DUB Custom Title Time!

1,591 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#440027
im gettin more interested in your project vwcool, my plans will be needing big brakes, waiting in anticipation for results info on the completed package etc

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#440206
1stcarbug wrote:im gettin more interested in your project vwcool, my plans will be needing big brakes, waiting in anticipation for results info on the completed package etc
Lemme guess.. you have a Super, right? Means I gotta make another kit to suit...
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56astro Custom Title Time!

1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#440210
Just get the std kit done first :P 😂

Any ideas on where I can source Ford wheels to suit the volksie? Or maybe Porsche bolt pattern is a better option.

VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#477202
Another update:
(wow...another four months has disappeared...)

For all those that are interested in the V-Force wheels. I saw Richard and Alex Holzl at the Nats and we determined that my big brakes DO FIT inside the 15x6-inch V-Force wheels which makes fitting these big brakes even easier (and less expensive) as there is no stud pattern change required.
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Special Air Service Chief "Gunna"

1,769 posts · joined Oct 2004 ·

#495232
VWCOOL,

How are these suckers travelling, how did you get on with engineering ?
Is everything go or did you have issues that had to be sorted ie. F+R bias adjuster etc ?
Cheers
Brendan
Calling all NSW Mid North Coast Veedubbers

Click Below
Mid North Coast VW

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#495247
I have driven this car hard for over 1000kms, the brakes are 👍


VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#495248
I have done close to 5000km on these and I am still shocked at how well they pull up. My doors now pop open with full braking on the flat...

However, for a number of reasons (too much work, basically...) I still haven't:
a) cooked them at a track
b) been successful with having rear 'core' hubs manufactured for legal stud conversions, and
c) determined a RRP for the front brake package

These are three things that I wish to do before I begin supply.

Bias - an aftermarket prop valve is fitted to the front line under the fuel tank on my car (Oval, IRS, 1916, 205/60/15 Falkens all round) so no dramas with premature front or rear lockup (yes, it will be legal as it is not 'driver adjustable').

There is also a second set recently installed in a WRX-transplant Type 3 (GTMac's car). Apart from the fact I personally love omifukkengoawd braking effort, this is the main reason I have put the effort into these V8-spec brakes - to supply legal, ventilated front disc brakes for the increasing number of VWs with engines transplanted from cars (usually Subies) that have vented front brakes from the factory. This is a requirement of most states' Code of Practice: brakes that meet or exceed the OE fitment must be fitted when transplanting engines. ie vented/vented etc.

I am also in the early stages of another rear disc brake design that will be smaller and lighter than the commonly-used Falcon brakes, and hopefully offer better size, appearance and performance compatability with std Beetle front discs as a 'rear only' upgrade. If I go ahead with this kit - only playing at this stage - it will be 4-stud only to keep costs down and be a perfect match for std Beetle/Type 3 front discs. It will offer a worthwhile, budget-priced increase in braking for hottie air-cooled-powered cars used hard on the street and only ocassionally on the track.

Oh, yeah, and I'm also investigating getting the cost - but not quality or effectiveness - of the front brakes down to under the $2K+ I have spent (just on front hardware - not R&D!) so far.

A lot of stuff and I can only devote about an hour a week to it all!

Thanks for the interest - U2U me if you want to know more


[ Edited on 31-5-2006 by VWCOOL ]
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