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the best place for your radiator is.... (now, how do I get it to warm up?)

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MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#579886
They're a bit s l o w down there in Blacktown........'bout time:P
tssnq.com.au

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#579890
I might be slow, but at least I don't play the banjo with all SIX fingers. 🤓

Now I'm off to steal some broken washing machines...which reminds me. Someone graffitied my letter box this morning! And he couldn't spell either. Wrote "TRID". I think he meant "trip". That's how slow they are round here! What is the world coming too? 🙄
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

aussiebaja Insano Dub Head

738 posts · joined Jun 2006 ·

#579929
now youll just have to be carefull that you dont come down too hard on the front in case the radiator hits
BETTER TO BE THOUGHT A FOOL THAN TO OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT:puke

sand kombi Officially Full-On Dubber

345 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#580048
Yeah, but what about all sand, dirt, rocks and stuff, when the beam digs into the ground.
MIKE.
VW'S DON'T LEAK OIL, THEY JUST LEAVE THEIR MARK !!!

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#580072
don't worry, it will be getting a bash plate underneath it to prevent them getting in. Also, I'l be putting some panels on the sides to stop things being flung in behind the radiator by the front wheels. 😉

a number of people on here have radiators in the front of the buggies. more still have radiators UNDER their buses and they have no dramas.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

cram Officially Full-On Dubber

368 posts · joined Jan 2005 ·

#580128
Its really cleaned up the back end...plus a few more kgs in the front which can't be a bad thing. Good move!

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#580161
With the radiator and ducting on the back and the decklid covering it there was 20kg of weight at the furthest rear point of the car. That was without the water, which I estimate at another 5kg or so. That weight is now forward of the front beam by 2 inchs. So yes I'm looking forward to an improvement in handling. Next up the battery will move forward as well. Probably into the passenger side footwell. that should help balance 97kg of driver on the other side of the car. I really need to do some more bike riding and drink less Corona. :o
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#584063
next question....

How cool is safe?

the new setup works so well that it won't warm up properly. Even today (26deg outside) sitting in traffic, it only got up over 75deg once and when we got going it went back down to 70 and stayed there. On friday, I drove along the M4 for 10 minutes at 90km/h in 3rd gear @ 4000rpm and it struggled to get up to 70degs.

So How can I get it to warm up?

I don't mind it running cool, but I worry about the oil working properly at such a low temp.

Just so you know, the thermostat is rated at 76deg and now has a 8mm hole where the flipper valve was.

Ay ideas? Should I run different oil? Do I need a hotter thermostat? Is 65deg ok for long periods?

[ Edited on 12-4-07 by pete wood ]
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#584064
Hi Peter

Do you have an oil temp gauge? Cool oil is the motor killer. Maybe you need to go back to a undrilled stock thermostat. I had very small hole in my WBX one to help prevent airlocks, much smaller than 8 mm. So pull thermostat out and put a pop rivet in the hole that you have, then drill the smallest hole that you can manageand try that.

Failing this you could try blanking some off the radiator face off after you have finished making the bash panels etc.

Steve

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#584078
Brad normally advises a bigger than normal hole to assist with bleeding the air out of the system with the front radiator set-up, 8mm or smaller hole.

Where is the temp sender? Is it the normal EJ unit?

What thermostat does it have? Did you put a cooler thermostat in it when you had the overheating problems?

When you let it sit and idle, does the thermo come on?

If the thermo doesn't come on I will be amazed. Sitting still the thermo should eventually come on. It takes a while for it to come on in my car, but it will always come on.

What temp does the thermo come on?

Is your heater loop open or closed?
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#584082
Baja Wes wrote:Brad normally advises a bigger than normal hole to assist with bleeding the air out of the system with the front radiator set-up, 8mm or smaller hole.

Where is the temp sender? Is it the normal EJ unit?
aftermarket in the same place as the EJ unit. Works ok. I don't think the guage is the issue.
What thermostat does it have? Did you put a cooler thermostat in it when you had the overheating problems?
The thermostat is the stocker for this motor. It reads 76deg on it. I replaced it when I built the car with a new one, but it's the same model as the oldy.
When you let it sit and idle, does the thermo come on?

If the thermo doesn't come on I will be amazed. Sitting still the thermo should eventually come on. It takes a while for it to come on in my car, but it will always come on.

What temp does the thermo come on?
Yes, the thermos come on, but it takes a long time. Like half an hour or so just sitting and idling. I've set the switch on the thermos to come on when the temp guage reads 90degs. It's only reached this temp while sitting still. Once you are driving, it won't get hot, even in traffic.
Is your heater loop open or closed?
The heater is an open loop setup. It's always circulating, but I have an extra loop the heat is hooked into and a tap that allows the water to circulate in that loop. Look at my heater post and you'll see what I mean.

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=53365#pid554267

I can't believe this in a way, I've spent so many years bitching about it getting hot and not cooling and now I have the opposite problem. I think the problem is the sheer mass of water in the new system. It takes a long time to heat it all and the long side pipes shed heat all on there own. I've seriously thought about covering them in lagging to help the issue. It's all so dumb. You have to laugh I guess.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#584111
Usually things don't work for weird reasons.

76 deg is pretty cool, mine is 82deg (although not a suby). 76 is what it is going to try to keep the water temp at.

I would be suprised if you could overcool a car using the water flowing through an 8mm hole. Was the thermostat gasket still ok, you didn't damage it in the drilling process?

The other option is the gauge or sending is playing up. Terry's car said it was overheating at one stage, but it was just a dodgy gauge / sender. Your guage could have always been reading 10 degrees low (meaning it used to be really hot).

It may be something weird and unexpected. Just yesterday I saw a car that had an alternator that wouldn't work. It turned out the powder coated alternator brackets were preventing the alternator from earthing to the engine block....

[ Edited on 10-4-2007 by Baja Wes ]
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#584141
I've got a mate who's a fridgy who's got a special laser thingo, I'll borrow that and test it with that, but the pipes don't feel very hot either, so I think the guage is right. 🙁

New thermostat time I think.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#584151
If you replace the thermostat.....use a GENUINE one and make sure it is installed the right way...the wax goes to the inside closest to the recirculation/bypass line.
tssnq.com.au

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#584206
if you use an IR gun to measure the temp (or other surface method) just remember the water temp will be hotter than any outer surface temps.

Aluminium conducts quite well so the outside temp will be similar but still slightly colder than the water inside. Rubber hoses will be colder on the outside.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#584214
just drive it harder, and rev the ring out of it:P


ricola Wolfsburg Wizard

437 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#584263
An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, you may as well not have one! Get a stock one back in and let it do it's job of controlling the engine temperature.. If you need better bleeding do it some other way, with extra bleeds or something..
Rich
http://www.ricola.co.uk

Brad Wolfsburg Elder

3,764 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#584522
ricola wrote:An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
Can you explain why this is so ??

The purpose of the hole is to stop the air blockage they will often get without it. I can happily say from experience that an 8mm hole will not make it useless. I am guessing from your comment you have of course run an 8mm hole in an EJ series thermostat and found that it was useless because you also ran it without a thermostat at all and it was the same as one with an 8mm hole it it ... yeah ??

If not you would be basing your comment on what exactly ??

Ok back to the issue at hand..

75 is to cool, get an 82 one for it, as Mick H said only get a Subaru on and not an aftermarket one. If you system bleeds up ok put it in with the hole and see how it goes. As I said before the hole is to allow the air to get through.

The EJ has a thermostat bypass which is much greater than 8mm which allows the coolant to move through the system all the time even when it is shut, funnily enough through the heater core which you are already aware of.

I am guessing from your post that your ECU does not control the thermo fan ?? If this is the case, why ?? I would change it back as the ECU is much better at is than a Davies Craig temp prob and variable resistor.

The subi likes to run around the 85 degree mark. Best way to check this is with your ECU controlled thermo. This comes on at 86 degrees so you can see what your gauge says when it comes on and it gives you a good indication of what calibration it is. The ECU temp sender is right next to the gauge one.

In Short replace your thermostat… from memory you have had your EJ hot a few times so it is probably stuffed by now anyway.
Brad
Why copy when you can own an original ?
Meyers Manx Australia

ElusiveStranger Officially Full-On Dubber

330 posts · joined May 2006 ·

#584582
Buggy Brad wrote:The subi likes to run around the 85 degree mark. Best way to check this is with your ECU controlled thermo. This comes on at 86 degrees so you can see what your gauge says when it comes on and it gives you a good indication of what calibration it is. The ECU temp sender is right next to the gauge one.
That could depend on your specs, VSS calibrated for wheel size...

Not too sure what your Scooby specs are over there but I posted this scan from a 2002 Impreza manual. It's the 2l NA model.

http://www.vwkd.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?p=2408&highlight=#2408
[edit: bottom of page 1]



Keep up the good work Pete :thumb

[ Edited on 12-4-2007 by Baja Wes ]

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#584615
I could go on and babble useless information,but I wont:alien. Pete,get the 82 degree one as Brad has said.You don't run A/C and excessive loads so the cooler thermostat isn't required. When my Kombi was converted it had been installed with both an outlet temperature sender of the water returning to the radiator and an inlet temperature sender,the water returning to MAINTAIN the engine temperature,from the radiator. The difference between the 2 temperatures,when hot and at operating temperature was about 10 degrees. I also had an 8mm hole in my genuine thermostat and had no dramas. With your setup,now being more efficient than it previously was I would do as has been suggested, a new hotter thermostat. My buggy has an 8mm hole in the thermostat as well...and it heats up fine:P Aren't you glad I didn't babble on...:jesus
ElusiveStranger....the chart doesn't factor in wheel spin...... do you really drive at under 100kmh?????? Strange...:beer



[ Edited on 12-4-07 by MickH ]
tssnq.com.au

Brad Wolfsburg Elder

3,764 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#584783
the 2002 N/A is an OBD2 so the ECU has muliple settings for the thermo fan. Most OBD1 EJ's like Pete's only have one setting, although some of them have two, usually when you mod the loom you join them togeather so they both turn the fan on although only the lower 85 deg one is really used.

From what I have read / played with they VSS has no input on the OBD1's. The OBD2's are heaps cooler and have a lot more adjustment compaired to the OBD1/
Brad
Why copy when you can own an original ?
Meyers Manx Australia

ricola Wolfsburg Wizard

437 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·

#584810
Buggy Brad wrote:
ricola wrote:An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
Can you explain why this is so ??
The heater is part of the bypass circuit, which is a smaller volume of coolant that is used until the engine gets up to operating temperature, the size of this bypass is irrelevant as it is seperated from the main radiator and pipe volume. If you put a big hole in the thermostat you effectively have the complete circuit of coolant to warm up. Most engine wear is on the warm up (not to mention more fuel) and if you have all this extra volume to warm up before the engine is at its optimum operating temperature it will obviously take much longer and result in more wear.
The key is to get the thermostat bulb to see a good flow of the bypass circuit so it can do its job of regulating the engine temperature, drilling a hole in it stops it doing its job of getting the engine up to operating temperature as quickly as possible.

In hot climates you may not register such a big difference, as the coolant temperature increase will be relatively smaller. In cold climates you get cold coolant on the other side of the thermostat, together with heat removed from the bypass by the heater, so it always sees a lag of the real engine temperature. I had this problem on my last EJ20t powered car. A lot of people also have problems when using engines with return mounted thermostats in the middle or rear of the car, a thermostat mounted to the outlet is a good fix for this and is what I plan to do on my WRX karmann cabrio.. Another fix is to space out the thermostat and direct to it a better bypass flow, some vanagon guys in Canada sell a kit for this which apparently works very well.
http://www.ricola.co.uk

ElusiveStranger Officially Full-On Dubber

330 posts · joined May 2006 ·

#584819
MickH wrote:ElusiveStranger....the chart doesn't factor in wheel spin...... do you really drive at under 100kmh?????? Strange...:beer

I'll have a beer, cheers! 😀
My VSS runs from the front wheel, the fan kicks in when I pop the wheels up 😉 (I had to install the VSS as my Ign kept cutting out on a constant throttle setting)

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#584837
To whom it may concern,

I owe Brad a massive apology. I have inadvertantly made him look like an idiot when he was only trying to help me with his experience and expertize.

I publicly ask brad's forgiveness. I'm very sorry his advice and my comments were taken out of context and that his business has been brought into a bad light because of this. I have had nothing but positive experiences with COR and I rang him for his advice precisely because of this.

To all the guys arguing with him, please stop. He has built lots of EJ powered cars and has hours of experience.

I don't know exactly why my car is not warming up as intended, but whatever the problem is, it's not Brad's fault.

I think the problem has to do with lower temps in Sydney and an extra long heater circuit in my car.

Again, I say, Brad please accept my sincerest apologies.

Pete :blush
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

tassupervee That really hurts doesnt it!

1,171 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#584997
Buggy Brad wrote:
ricola wrote:An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
Can you explain why this is so ??

The purpose of the hole is to stop the air blockage they will often get without it. I can happily say from experience that an 8mm hole will not make it useless. I am guessing from your comment you have of course run an 8mm hole in an EJ series thermostat and found that it was useless because you also ran it without a thermostat at all and it was the same as one with an 8mm hole it it ... yeah ??
If not you would be basing your comment on what exactly ??

Ummm...........well actually, I actually fully agree with Ricola.

Back in the V6 Capri days, we were chasing overheating issues and tried this approach after being advised to, along with the nafarious practise of removing the thermostat altogether!!! Which BTY, caused the engine to overheat even further!! And experimented with different sized and number of holes in the thermostat flange ranging from a single 3mm and up to many 6mm holes around the flange.

Basically, it all achieved nothing apart from causing the engine to run too cold when not run hard, say, down long hills and experience very wide and savage temp variations and seriously slowed the engine from initial heating up.
However, it did make filling the system pretty foolproof!!!

This is because so much of the water pressure differential, created by a closed thermostat, necessary to force the water thru the internal bypass system, including a heater core, was lost.

The water made its way along the path of least resistance which was the holes in the thermostat and went out into the radiator, introducing relatively cold water into an already cold engine, rather than forcing water around and around the engine sans radiator making warmup a really looooong process. The heater didnt work properly either after that.

Air only requires a suprisingly small orifice to bleed thru and a single 3mm hole right at the top of the flange is more than adequate to allow air to pass by that point without compromising the operation of the thermostat.

The operation of filling/bleeding the system out becomes a little more complicated and time consuming to get right but the results are well worth it in terms of faster warmup and less variation in water temps whilst running along with a fucking hot heater!!.

Careful attention to the setup of a de-airation/header tank will just about cure any air issues in the system regardless of the positioning of the radiator.

Ford, for one, solved the drama of a radiator below the top of the water system a long time ago.

L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....