Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
bet the kadrons would make more power 😂.
LATEST EFI PROJECT
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
You guys don't understand why I have gone down the EFI-route.
What size TB are used on other 2 litre production engines?
If you put your carbie-thinking-cap on and have a look at just about every single production car on the road you will find faults with the intake system regarding "air flow". But in my/Westi's design we have about 1/2 a litre of volume per runner. How much air can 1 cylinder take in 1 stroke?
It's not about power, it's about a broad torque curve, and a ssmmooootthh running engine. If I wanted power I'd have gone down the steroid route in the first place.
Keep up guys, it's the 21st century!!
😂
What size TB are used on other 2 litre production engines?
If you put your carbie-thinking-cap on and have a look at just about every single production car on the road you will find faults with the intake system regarding "air flow". But in my/Westi's design we have about 1/2 a litre of volume per runner. How much air can 1 cylinder take in 1 stroke?
It's not about power, it's about a broad torque curve, and a ssmmooootthh running engine. If I wanted power I'd have gone down the steroid route in the first place.
Keep up guys, it's the 21st century!!
😂
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday
16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
you tell eum Steve they dont understand I did exactly what your doing makes sense to me keep up the good work and hurry up n finish the job will yarKeep up guys, it's the 21st century!!
I started after you and have had mine going for 12 months now
I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409
westi what the
1,610 posts · joined Aug 2005 ·
please do not change the throttle body as it is all in the tune.
please ,please please.
we are running 90mm on 4cyl engines they are as smooth as silk to drive.we even have done a 100mm on our latest project.
most factory cars in the 2ltr classes these days come with a minimum of 65mm.and they produce good torque from very low in the rev range.
even the little cube engines are still running 50mm.1.3/1,4 yaris's and stuff like that.
it is good to see it all happening,can't wait to see her finished.
please ,please please.
we are running 90mm on 4cyl engines they are as smooth as silk to drive.we even have done a 100mm on our latest project.
most factory cars in the 2ltr classes these days come with a minimum of 65mm.and they produce good torque from very low in the rev range.
even the little cube engines are still running 50mm.1.3/1,4 yaris's and stuff like that.
it is good to see it all happening,can't wait to see her finished.
down sharon.
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Maaate, did you think it had come to a sad end?westi wrote:it is good to see it all happening,can't wait to see her finished.
Not on your life!!
The 'tuner' (for want of a better word) said that they had got close to max. air flow with
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
Judsons4eva Officially Full-On Dubber
270 posts · joined Oct 2004 ·
Throttle body size calculator - http://dairally.net/daihard/chas/MiscCalculators/DaiThrottle.htm
550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED 👍 👍
Load runs done today after some muckin around with the fuel pressure reg and other stuff.
Max RWHP atm is 69.2 (91 RON unleaded).
Redline has been set @ 5200 (rather than 5500) as that's where the power begins to drop off.
Still some tuning to do tomorrow on the cold start-ups and stuff, but otherwise pretty much finished.
I got some video footage but it needs to be edited as the files are too large for photobucket.
Load runs done today after some muckin around with the fuel pressure reg and other stuff.
Max RWHP atm is 69.2 (91 RON unleaded).
Redline has been set @ 5200 (rather than 5500) as that's where the power begins to drop off.
Still some tuning to do tomorrow on the cold start-ups and stuff, but otherwise pretty much finished.
I got some video footage but it needs to be edited as the files are too large for photobucket.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
power shouldn't be dropping off below 5500rpm............that combo produces 85hp on kadrons.
Not hassling you Steve, but you should be getting more than 69hp. 👍
Not hassling you Steve, but you should be getting more than 69hp. 👍
hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
great news to have it going Steve
do the curves look nice and even ?...........doesn't sound like you have driven it yet, keen to know how different it feels when you do, be sure to drop in on me!
realizing your not after maximum attack, but it would be nice to have some mapping beyond the HP drop off , as it can be quicker in some instances to rev more than saccrifice the time it takes to change gears
do the curves look nice and even ?...........doesn't sound like you have driven it yet, keen to know how different it feels when you do, be sure to drop in on me!
realizing your not after maximum attack, but it would be nice to have some mapping beyond the HP drop off , as it can be quicker in some instances to rev more than saccrifice the time it takes to change gears
Judsons4eva Officially Full-On Dubber
270 posts · joined Oct 2004 ·
http://www.vwtrendsweb.com/features/0301vwt_the_first_vw_trends_dyno_day/
Question? The link above is a range of VW's on test with RWP on some modest performance engines of around 100rwhp. Are these yanks dreaming or am I missing something? What is your engine specs? The EFI setup looks like it is designed for 120hp+ flywheel hp.
I accept you are still tuning and the RPM is still low.
Question? The link above is a range of VW's on test with RWP on some modest performance engines of around 100rwhp. Are these yanks dreaming or am I missing something? What is your engine specs? The EFI setup looks like it is designed for 120hp+ flywheel hp.
I accept you are still tuning and the RPM is still low.
550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
am i missing sumthing ❓ .........there's nothing modest in that link?
dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome
5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 ·
Yes their wheel dynos read more than ours.
Most of their calculations claim wheel power to be the same as our FW power.
I wish mine was that good but it aint.
I would be trying to get them to tune it at least 10% past the rpm at which peak power occurs.
Great installation.
Good work.
85 wheel power with Kadrons Craig?
Thats pretty damn good.
Most of their calculations claim wheel power to be the same as our FW power.
I wish mine was that good but it aint.
I would be trying to get them to tune it at least 10% past the rpm at which peak power occurs.
Great installation.
Good work.
85 wheel power with Kadrons Craig?
Thats pretty damn good.
westi wrote:That's mad Alan.
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Everyone seems to get hung up on HP figures. That's fine in competition circles and the like.
My car is a daily driver, like other people's Magnas and Dunnydores. So in my case the torque numbers, curve and spread are more important. Not peak HP @ high revs. After all, how long does the engine sit in the peak HP rev range anyways!! (Not including your work car Craig!!)
The redline on the spec sheet was 5500, so reducing that by 300RPM is no biggy.
Dave, I will pass on the "10%" suggestion to them today 👍
Hopefully, it will be finished today, but I'm not expecting to be able to get to the Engineer and RTA until next week.
My car is a daily driver, like other people's Magnas and Dunnydores. So in my case the torque numbers, curve and spread are more important. Not peak HP @ high revs. After all, how long does the engine sit in the peak HP rev range anyways!! (Not including your work car Craig!!)
The redline on the spec sheet was 5500, so reducing that by 300RPM is no biggy.
Dave, I will pass on the "10%" suggestion to them today 👍
Hopefully, it will be finished today, but I'm not expecting to be able to get to the Engineer and RTA until next week.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
Mick058 Custom Title Time!
1,580 posts · joined Jan 2008 ·
looking good Steve.
Now im on a steep learning curve and am seeking to understand, but even if your after a daily driver, why would you set the RPM below peak power?
So the base peaks at 5500rpm, and can rev to 6200rpm - what would be the advantage in setting it at 5200rpm? How would that give you a better torque curve? Isn't that the point of forking out for the twin plugs too...
Cheers, Mick
Now im on a steep learning curve and am seeking to understand, but even if your after a daily driver, why would you set the RPM below peak power?
So the base peaks at 5500rpm, and can rev to 6200rpm - what would be the advantage in setting it at 5200rpm? How would that give you a better torque curve? Isn't that the point of forking out for the twin plugs too...
Cheers, Mick
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Mick, you will notice that I no longer run carbies. All the HP and rev limits quoted for the base 1915 were for carbies.Mick058 wrote:looking good Steve.
Now im on a steep learning curve and am seeking to understand, but even if your after a daily driver, why would you set the RPM below peak power?
So the base peaks at 5500rpm, and can rev to 6200rpm - what would be the advantage in setting it at 5200rpm? How would that give you a better torque curve? Isn't that the point of forking out for the twin plugs too...
Cheers, Mick
I have gone for a single TB inlet for torque (mainly determined by EFI runner length), tuning simplicity, parts replacement, and noise reduction.
I haven't (and probably never will) had the opportunity to compare my set-up with EXACTLY the same engine without EFI, single TB, twin ignition. But each of those 'improvements' was always intended to make MY car a better daily driver proposition.
Regarding the red line and tuning issues, I will revisit this with the boys today, as suggested by DB above.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
Mick058 Custom Title Time!
1,580 posts · joined Jan 2008 ·
Cheers Steve.
How much quieter is it?
Sorry, what does 'TB' stand for.
How much quieter is it?
Sorry, what does 'TB' stand for.
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
HEAPS
Throttle body
Throttle body
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
Judsons4eva Officially Full-On Dubber
270 posts · joined Oct 2004 ·
Steve
What RWHP did the carby version do?
Hope to get my 2.0L 914 engine (with EFI) on a dyno soon - trying to establish what is good power for as you say a reliable daily driver.
Ken
What RWHP did the carby version do?
Hope to get my 2.0L 914 engine (with EFI) on a dyno soon - trying to establish what is good power for as you say a reliable daily driver.
Ken
550 Porsche Spyder
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
56 Oval mit Judson
96 Porsche 993 C2
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Craig Torrens wrote:that combo produces 85hp on kadrons.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Don't loose sight of the fact that the runners are un-modified factory ones off a 1600. If we had come up with a complete custom intake the results may be different.
But bet your bottom dollar these factors won't be taken into account when the inevitable 'rubbishing' is taking place.
But bet your bottom dollar these factors won't be taken into account when the inevitable 'rubbishing' is taking place.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
Steve peak power for that combo is produced at 5500rpm with REDLINE at 6200rpm......so I suggest you reset your computer because YES it is a "biggy"56astro wrote:The redline on the spec sheet was 5500, so reducing that by 300RPM is no biggy.
Setting it at 5200 means your motor will NEVER reach peak power, and when you change gears (at 5200) the rev drop will then take you to below where the cam is efficient...............not very sensible for a daily driver.
Mick058 Custom Title Time!
1,580 posts · joined Jan 2008 ·
ha, the bliss of forums.
If you accomplished what you wanted, stuff em - on the other hand, if you haven't, takes some guts to admit it.
Thanks for sharing the info, i've watched it only the last few days and have enjoyed the read 👍
If you accomplished what you wanted, stuff em - on the other hand, if you haven't, takes some guts to admit it.
Thanks for sharing the info, i've watched it only the last few days and have enjoyed the read 👍
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
🙅Craig Torrens wrote:and when you change gears (at 5200) the rev drop will then take you to below where the cam is efficient...............not very sensible for a daily driver.
Cam comes on about 2200 according to the building, and that is what I have experienced prior to the twin plugs.
The difference in revs between changing at 5000 or 5500 is:
272 for 1st to 2nd
306 for 2nd to 3rd
326 for 3rd to 4th
The revs at the next gear for a 5000 gear change is:
2724
3058
3253
all after the cam has come-on.
IT IS NO BIGGY!!
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
What combo?Craig Torrens wrote:Steve peak power for that combo is produced at 5500rpm with REDLINE at 6200rpm.....
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35MPG on 101.3kPa
76bug Officially Full-On Dubber
215 posts · joined Feb 2005 ·
56astro are u running pobjoy's 356C cam ???
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
37/68
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday
16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Steve
I bet it going to drive quite nice not lumpy or noisy at all very similar
you should have come for a run at Valla
I bet it going to drive quite nice not lumpy or noisy at all very similar
you should have come for a run at Valla
I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Dave,
Yes, nice and quiet,
and smooth,
and fuel efficient,
and easy to start,
and not have to ride the accelerator on cold mornings,
and ..... ahh, you get the picture - speaking to the converted eh.
Valla would have been a bit depressing this year, seeing as how long it has taken to get the dub back on the road. I didn't expect it to take this long, you did a great job getting yours together in the time you did.
Yes, nice and quiet,
and smooth,
and fuel efficient,
and easy to start,
and not have to ride the accelerator on cold mornings,
and ..... ahh, you get the picture - speaking to the converted eh.
Valla would have been a bit depressing this year, seeing as how long it has taken to get the dub back on the road. I didn't expect it to take this long, you did a great job getting yours together in the time you did.
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome
5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 ·
Knowing how longer runners on my engine
moved the power and torque figures to a lower rpm,
I would say that the difference between yours now
and the Kadron manifolds before,
would do just as you say.(about 300rpm earlier)
Regarding power figures, I would not be concerned with the actual number.
The fact that it is occuring at that particular rpm is the key to it all.
Dynos can tell different power figures,
but the rpm where it occurs means there is not anything wrong.
(being how close it is to the claimed/advertised rpm for that long block).
Being a little lower in the rpm means, yes, it may be slightly lower in power,
but may be easilly 20ftlbs higher in torque at the lower rpm.
Exactly what you are after.
moved the power and torque figures to a lower rpm,
I would say that the difference between yours now
and the Kadron manifolds before,
would do just as you say.(about 300rpm earlier)
Regarding power figures, I would not be concerned with the actual number.
The fact that it is occuring at that particular rpm is the key to it all.
Dynos can tell different power figures,
but the rpm where it occurs means there is not anything wrong.
(being how close it is to the claimed/advertised rpm for that long block).
Being a little lower in the rpm means, yes, it may be slightly lower in power,
but may be easilly 20ftlbs higher in torque at the lower rpm.
Exactly what you are after.
westi wrote:That's mad Alan.
56astro Custom Title Time!
1,772 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Thanks Dave,
About the dyno, the machine is a Dyno Dynamics one, but an earlier type I think. I asked about shoot-out mode and they said it didn't have it, so not sure if the number needs to be corrected.
I was hesitant about quoting the HP figures for this very reason. But in the end I decided that being open was probably better than being secretive.
Your last paragraph is spot-on. 👍
About the dyno, the machine is a Dyno Dynamics one, but an earlier type I think. I asked about shoot-out mode and they said it didn't have it, so not sure if the number needs to be corrected.
I was hesitant about quoting the HP figures for this very reason. But in the end I decided that being open was probably better than being secretive.
Your last paragraph is spot-on. 👍
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa