2443 Twin turbo street bug project, back on track again.

2443TT · 2007-11-17T12:39:46+00:00

Hi Everybody, Well my 1966 bug has been off the road for more than a year now. What started out as some mild engine changes and a gearbox upgrade (that never eventuated), has turned into a complete rebuild of the car. I've now got the car stripped of its guards, suspension removed, Porsche brakes are gone etc. All that remains is the shell and its sitting on stands. The reason all this happened is that after a few conversations with Rod Penrose, I discovered I needed to change a lot more things to improve the reliability of my setup if I wanted to extract very serious HP from it for any extended period of time. This meant some serious engine changes... which then got a little out of control. The end result of all the parts chasing, machining and custom made parts will be a 2443cc twin turbo'd, twin intercooled engine, water cooled heads, setup for sub 7:1 compression, flanged crank, 4 stage dry sump system, twin plate clutch, around 8500 rpm and potential for about 400-500rwhp. The engine build is on hold till the last of the machining work is finished and will be posted on another thread when it kicks into full swing. Having that much power meant that using a vw gearbox was going to be pretty pointless. I'd been previously trying to source a custom built box from Rancho. That was for the 2332 engine, but as it turned out I would have probably broken that box inside a year anyway. So the only option was to go porsche. 915 boxes are good for about 300hp, or more if you spend money on them. The g50's are massive, and require an absurd amount of cutting away of the chassis from what I've seen of other people cars. Unless I were to go 1/2 or full tube frame chassis, G50 was off the cards. I did come very close to getting a G50 though, and found a 2wd converted 5 speed for $4300 in sydney. But as it turns out Dave Butler had a 930 box. It didnt take much to persuade him to sell it either. These boxes are used in the Ultima GTO's with 500hp small block V8's on them. In stock form they handle 550hp, and with an oil cooler and remote oil pump they are basically the same box used in the 750hp 935 race cars. At last an indestructable gearbox. THe down side is that the ratio's are very high, but that can be fixed with a ratio change down the track. Now with an engine and gearbox sorted, I needed a way to get the power to the ground. It had been my plan to widen the guards and put some very serious rubber under the car. I've had the car that looks stock that goes like a rocket. Now Im going all out, the outward appearance is going to have to have as much intimidation factor as the engine sound will have. To make all this possible I was going to have to completely re-work the suspension on the existing chassis, or just build a new one and start from scratch. I scored a swing axel chassis to use as a donor pan and went about cutting and clearancing for the gearbox. So for suspension I've sourced all 1988 944 Turbo components. These are the widest rear trailing arms made for the 944's and increase the wheel track by around 100mm with the wheels I will be using. The front suspension is going to be converted to a custom Mcpherson strut arrangement using 944 turbo A-Arms, and spindles etc. All the suspension is going to be fully adjustable, so I can set the car up for motokhana or drags. I want the car to handle, stop and go. Anyway enough background... I've spend a few weekends contemplating how to best attack the new chassis and today I started to get serious with it. 930 Gearbox Clearancing My unique approach to an IRS conversion. Front gearbox mount/crossmember, and front torsion housing re-inforcing (the cardboard template). So thats about all for now. I hope to finish the front gearbox mount tomorrow. Im going to try and make regular posts for this build. The goal is to have it finished in 5 months. Cheers, Ian Swinkels

VWCOOL 23 Windows of Awesome

5,158 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 29 Oct 2008, 8:45 pm

#677304

yep looks like an awesome job... and I'm glad to see Bundy Bear helped out 😂

Pay your debts, CxxT

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 29 Oct 2008, 8:49 pm

#677307

Yep the bundy bear was there. I think he is in the pics in the booth wearing the same shirt too. So long as its in a silver bottle he drinks it...

Dasdubber DAS Resto Haus

5,746 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 29 Oct 2008, 9:47 pm

#677314

Very nice Ian, paint looks superb!

www.dasrestoparts.com.au

wibble Freakinbuggied

404 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 29 Oct 2008, 11:14 pm

#677324

Nice...sooooo nice.... For those that have only seen pics, they just cannot possibly do this thing justice.... Dude, you should take it to the summernats while its fresh and kick arse, or better yet take me for another drive n scare the crap out of me... haha.. So do you get an award for being the most popular post????

http://www.waycoolbuggies.com

063bug

0 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 30 Oct 2008, 8:31 am

#677367

....your project is inspirational..... thanks for the regular updates and photos

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 30 Oct 2008, 10:08 am

#677384

Hi

Truly sensational. I've just changed ISPs so I had to wait until my ADSL running to view this thread.

BTW German Look is moving servers, should be back soon.

Steve

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 30 Oct 2008, 6:29 pm

#677462

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Im kind of stunned myself as to how well its looking. I wasnt planning on taking it this far. Its not meant to be a show pony. I just wanted it to look tidy and clean but once something starts....

Today the luggage lid was done and the passenger side was completed. The roof and mirrors are being done tomorrow so I can start to assemble things again. Mirrors have to go on before the single piece glass can be re-installed. My -12 weld on fitting still arent here and its been a week since I ordered them! Unless they arrive tomorow I cant get the welding on the heads finished.

The couriers managed to lose one of my parcels from CIP1 as well... Not engine parts though, new gas struts for the luggage compartment.

Cam Custom Title Time!

1,535 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 30 Oct 2008, 9:45 pm

#677504

Come on Ian, get the guards on! I need a new desktop background 😀

Type3Sicko Wolfsburg Wizard

596 posts · joined Dec 2006 · 31 Oct 2008, 5:53 pm

#677572

Clean and tidy!!! Understatement of the year.....that's PORNOGRAPHIC! Top stuff and testament to the fact that a top notch paint job is in the preparation. very inspiring 🙂

How many is enough?

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 31 Oct 2008, 9:19 pm

#677594

Cam wrote:Come on Ian, get the guards on! I need a new desktop background 😀

Yeah I know... Its like being teased by your girlfriend if you follow me... Its going to be a month before the guards go back on though.

Its all fabrication from here on in though. Ive removed the rear apron so engine installation is easy, and covered up the car with a few sheets to keep the dust away.

kombinationdetailing wrote:Clean and tidy!!! Understatement of the year.....that's PORNOGRAPHIC! Top stuff and testament to the fact that a top notch paint job is in the preparation. very inspiring 🙂

Thanks again for the feedback too guys.

So today the polishing was finishied. There is just a few spots in tight corners that will be completed when my mate gets a new small buff wheel. These spots will probably be completed when the guards are back on the car.

The roof of the car came up as well as the rest did, like a mirror. Sorry for the out of focus pic though.. I need a new camera.

And one from a distance. Still looks black in the shade.

So for those that have been waiting, I should have some tastey engine part pictures tomorrow. Everything is ready and my tig welding genius friend is lined up to start at 10am tomorrow.

Cheers,
Ian

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 1 Nov 2008, 5:34 am

#677600

Looking forward to the engine Ian!

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 1 Nov 2008, 6:40 pm

#677638

Hi Guys,

Well one of the cylinder heads is finished now. All that remains is pressure testing the water cooling jackets which I'll do tomorrow probably. Here is the process.

Basicly what the goals here is is to make a competition eliminator head street drivable, and also allow it to handle making big power for longer periods of time than the air cooling allows. If it allowed the porsche 935 race cars to make 700hp in the 70's it should hopefully work for me if i through even more money and technology at it.

So, starting with a competition eliminator head. 48x40, cnc ported.

I cut the air cooled fins off. (I removed the second one down, though its still in this old pic)

Worked out where the water fittings for supply and return needed to go, and put a divider in the middle (between the pushrod tubes) to split water flow through the return fitting.

Then the water jackets were welded on. Sorry I missed a few steps there. Once the head is pre-heated all the welding and bending of the jackets has to be done when its hot, so no time for camera. Basiclly its a lot of aneeling the jacket sheet metal, bending and banging with a piece of wood, tacking etc till its all in place.

Here you see a shot of the water inlet dividor port. A -12 speedflow fitting is sat squarely on the dividor and welded in place so water flows both sides of the head.

Closeup of the welded in fitting and water dividor.

The completed head.

And a couple of pics of the slightly massaged exhaust ports.

And the intake ports.

The second head will be done mid next week and next weekend. Ive ran out of argon so thats put the brakes on this weekends activities. Might start making more carbon fiber floor parts instead.

Cheers,
Ian

humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 1 Nov 2008, 7:09 pm

#677644

😵‍💫

FUCH your early!

http://www.noh2o.org/

Golde60 Fahrvergnugen

858 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 2 Nov 2008, 3:01 am

#677680

wowowowowowowowow

this is really taking everything to the next level

thanks for sharing it all on the web, this is great to watch

...................( O \ l / O ).....................

vassy66T1 Wow ... are U reading this?

2,120 posts · joined Jun 2003 · 2 Nov 2008, 7:56 am

#677687

Cool!! Always thought water cooled heads would be an interesting proposition.
Did Scat do water cooled heads at any stage?
I knew I guy racing sprints back in the '90's (speedway) that reckoned there was.

hellbugged 48's and straight cuts

5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 · 2 Nov 2008, 8:24 am

#677691

so very very nice!........

5th, 6th? head studs coming Ian.........mad if you don't.

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 2 Nov 2008, 9:37 am

#677696

great idea, I know porsche did the same on the 959. What are you using for a water pump?

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 2 Nov 2008, 10:51 am

#677701

I dont know about scat doing water cooled heads, but i have seen there is some company making a set that is meant for light aircraft use. I dont think many have used them on the street as of yet though. There are some references to them on shoptalk forums and the samba.

Here is some of the material I came up with while researching this modification.

An old article on converting air cooled heads.

And a set of CE heads done by a US company called the fab shop.. liberated from the samba.

5th studding would be possible on the top of the engine but the 6th stud on the under side would be pretty tricky. I think its a lot easier to do when your using autocraft heads. For the moment im going to be using a set of raceware head studs that will torque to 28ft-lb. Its easier to upgrade to a 12mm stud than it is to fit a 6th stud to the water cooled head. The material that would support the 6th stud on the underside of the head is partially removed to allow water flow. When you have a look at the air cooled fins and how they wrap around the pushrod tubes you'll see what I mean. The water galery on the under side of the head is about 3-4mm deep and has to be so the head isnt touching the pushrod tubes.

As for water pumps i'll probably use a davies craig pump or two. Plumbing is still a fair way off being started.

trickysimon 100km/h is only 9 seconds away

1,473 posts · joined Dec 2007 · 2 Nov 2008, 10:59 am

#677702

Are your still going to be using a shroud and fan?
Simon

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 2 Nov 2008, 11:08 am

#677703

trickysimon wrote:Are your still going to be using a shroud and fan?
Simon

Yes but geared down a little. I'll probably be experimenting with drive ratios a little once I work out what its going to need to cool properly. One of the above articles mentions running without a shroud entirely so I suppose its possible, but i doubt they were testing their engines with the kind of boost and rpm im planing on using as well.

LIFE IN THE LOW LANE All people have the right to stupidity but some abuse the pr

2,534 posts · joined Mar 2007 · 2 Nov 2008, 1:51 pm

#677714

Not to mention the North Queensland temperatures and humidity!!

ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE

Alder Outlaws VW Racing - check it out on fb!!

Flintstones Custom Title Time!

1,077 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 2 Nov 2008, 8:08 pm

#677817

Ian, I'm surprised that you removed the entire cooling fins and not leave at least half the fin height, to allow the water get in between and allow a quicker heat exchange to happen.
Could this have been done, or was there no option but to remove them entirely?

I've not done a watercooled conversion before so this is a bit of a learning curve for me.

The darker colour looks so nice by the way 👍👍
Cheers
Dino

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 2 Nov 2008, 8:21 pm

#677822

Yes in hind sight i should have left more cooling fin area around the tops and sides of the heads, just cut them down to 1/2 the height so there was more surface area. But I didnt think of that till after i'd already started modifying them. Keeping air cooling working over the outside of the heads should hopefully make up the diference. I'll be monitoring the temps of each head so time will tell i guess.

I figure that in a "conventional" water cooled car they dont have extra fins around combustion chambers or around the cylinders in the block (unless they are sleaved and have extra fins), so provided I keep the water at the desired temp I should be able to keep the heads at the temp I want to run them at too.

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 2 Nov 2008, 8:25 pm

#677826

vassy66T1 wrote:Cool!! Always thought water cooled heads would be an interesting proposition.
Did Scat do water cooled heads at any stage?
I knew I guy racing sprints back in the '90's (speedway) that reckoned there was.

In the late '70s Scat did a whole water cooled version of their "killer" engine.
(featured in Hot VW's Mag)
The R&D proved it was worth while,
but just as soon as it went into production,
the USAC group that sanctioned the speedway midgets in the USA(their target market),
changed the 'capacity limits' if the engine was water cooled,
thus cancelling out the benefit, and proposed market.

There were still quite a few off road customers that were very happy,
but I think once you go water cooled in those games, there may be more economical options.

Not sure what became of the project,
but when I first saw VW's version of the water cooled flat four around 1982,
I was surprised how similar it was

Now, back to our regular programming...

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

2443TT Fahrvergnugen

962 posts · joined Dec 2002 · 2 Nov 2008, 8:42 pm

#677833

Werent they a V4 based on 1/2 of some chev v8? I recall seeing the pics in my old hot vw magazing collection.

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 3 Nov 2008, 7:15 am

#677858

Might I suggest that you may actually be able to use an electric fan with a speed controller to make the most of it. That way, you only need to use it when the motor is really hot. There are a few guys now heading for this option to cut down on the constant power loss you get with a belt driven fan. Porsche did the same on all of their competition engines during the 70s, even the 1500hp twin turbo canam car featured this. It also makes the motor more compact as you can mount the fan flat on top of the motor like Westy has done with his car.

BTW, great build up. As per usual you are raising the bar way above normally high AVD standards. 👍

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 3 Nov 2008, 8:49 am

#677874

2443TT wrote:Werent they a V4 based on 1/2 of some chev v8? I recall seeing the pics in my old hot vw magazing collection.

The V4 was a much later project.

I have put some pics here to save cluttering your topic:

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=72690&page=1#pid677873

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

JVLRacing Custom Title Time!

1,100 posts · joined Mar 2007 · 3 Nov 2008, 5:46 pm

#677944

2443TT wrote:Werent they a V4 based on 1/2 of some chev v8? I recall seeing the pics in my old hot vw magazing collection.

They use those half cut down motors for speedcars....Fontana motors i think they were called

Super1302 Officially Full-On Dubber

361 posts · joined Jul 2008 · 3 Nov 2008, 7:09 pm

#677963

John at the veedub centre in Perth had a go at doing watercooled heads and ran it with a turbo. that was the 90's. Not sure what happened there after, i just new as i seen them sitting about after trialling.
hope your's goes good as it looks the goods and more.
top effort.

HGFS Wolfsburg Wizard

531 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 6 Nov 2008, 9:23 am

#678345

pete wood wrote:Might I suggest that you may actually be able to use an electric fan with a speed controller to make the most of it. That way, you only need to use it when the motor is really hot. There are a few guys now heading for this option to cut down on the constant power loss you get with a belt driven fan. Porsche did the same on all of their competition engines during the 70s, even the 1500hp twin turbo canam car featured this. It also makes the motor more compact as you can mount the fan flat on top of the motor like Westy has done with his car.

BTW, great build up. As per usual you are raising the bar way above normally high AVD standards. 👍

Pete I've been wondering about using an electric fan in my car to save on the power loss. I'd like to keep the OG fan housing though, do you know of any centrif fans ie the same config as OG that would work?

BTW Ian, looks great, now you're at the interesting part of the build!! I'm guessing the engine bay and underside of the car will be pretty cramped, twin turbo's water cooling etc.
But no doubt you have it well planned
Cheers
Greg

1954 Oval long term project going nowhere
1958 Beetle drag car project
1959 Beetle project I need to sell one day
1969 Squareback