1776 questions

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 3 Aug 2009, 6:38 pm

#727134

Hey there, I just have a few questions about cases today!

Later in the year I will be building a 1776, which I have decided I will run with Kadrons and a thunderbird hotdog extractor system. Its a lowish budget build and I just have a few questions.

Would I be able to use a stock (1600) case to achieve any sort of decent power? ( I mean... like less than Daimo's 98HP... but hopeing for about 80HP?)
Who would be the best/closest/most affordable option in the Brisbane/GC area to machine a case?
How much should I be paying for a decent used 1600 case (if i can use it..)?

As another thought, given the setup I want to run (kads and thunderbird zorst) Any idea's of rough power figures I would be looking at. This will be a daily car for a long time yet.

Thanks for advice, tips and ideas! 🙂

Jason

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 3 Aug 2009, 6:54 pm

#727138

Standard case will be fine.

Used cases are also fine as long as you have it checked for cracks.

Pobjoy would be your best option for having all the machining done to the case............and would only cost about $20 via Aust post to send it to him.

To bore and face cases for the larger barrels is $122 and to linebore is $99.......done by the best machinist you will find.

A GOOD secondhand case is probably aroung $150...................so for around $400 you will have a case ready to build your 1776 😎

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,785 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 3 Aug 2009, 7:47 pm

#727151

Machine work??
Cant go wrong with what Craig has said.
Making sure the thrust bearing isnt too shagged is one on the main things to look for / get checked

80HP at the wheels is a fair ask

I remember one of the first dyno days and CT got 73HP from his 1916 and it was a long haul to get it to 99
My 1776 got 62 or something like that

That said - a high 60's low 70HP motor is nothing to sneeze at.

What heads and cam are you looking at??

Futue te ipsum!!!

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 3 Aug 2009, 8:05 pm

#727157

Well.. The way I figure it, I should be able to double what my 1600tp puts out right? I dont know what work has been done on it in the last 36 years... But not alot to my knowledge. Its defs still a 1600, and still running the 34pict3 (which still runs badly with the exhaust I have).
Which leads me to this - the thunderbird runs really well on my mechanics (trev luckhurst) 1915 with IDF's, but He raves about kadrons for simple tuning and for being good on fuel. Both great for me. So given that they can be jetted to pretty much anything, and knowing that Stan Pobjoy puts them on 1915's, I decided that a 1776 was a good choice for me.

Id really like to push as much power out of it as possible but not go overboard as its a very tight tight low small... budget. Its also going to stay a daily driver. So, cold(ish) {its only QLD weather and in a garage} startups are on the books. Being that its a daily, it doesn need to rev to 8000rpm, which is why it will be a standard german crank and stock rods. balanced and machined, ect. In relation to cam, Im not sure, But I'm told w100 is bettter than stock but w110 may be a bit rough and lumpy downlow for daily driving. One thing that is really important is that taking off power.. which my car lacks cuurrently. So suggestions for cams would be awesome.

I will go for the standard case and have it machined and cleaned up, also looking for suggestions as to P/B's but probably just mahle's from Classicveedub, unless there is a better option.

Heads - I haven't really thought about yet.

Do you think there is any chance of actually getting 80hp out of an engine like this? (a friend runs a similar setup and he gets easily double the output of my engine....)

thanks for all the suggestions!

cnfabo Custom Title Time!

1,353 posts · joined Apr 2008 · 3 Aug 2009, 8:34 pm

#727176

you will have more of a chance of getting closer to 80hp with 94 jugs then 90.5's. but if your set with a 1776 go for it. wont cost extra to machine for 94 though...
check what prices rod is selling for before purchasing from others, i found he was cheapest by a fair bit, so if your talking budget , give him a shot..... good luck bro....

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 3 Aug 2009, 8:41 pm

#727179

you will be able to get 80hp with no probs from a 1776.

1776 producing 80hp = 1916 producing 86hp...............and there is a truck load of 1916's producing over 100hp as reliable daily drivers.

Like Barry said........you will be surprised at what 70-80hp will feel like in a beetle 👍

BUT....if you don't have the P&B's yet why dont you just go with the 94's and go 1916 ?

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 3 Aug 2009, 8:42 pm

#727181

Cheers Chris. Rod has 1915 shortblocks for just under 4k.

I'm Hoping to get all my main engine parts for under $2500... Than add labour (which will be cheap for me 🙂 )
all i need other than the main stuff, is another alternator and disi. that will keep my 1600 in running order. 🙂

really appreiciating the ideas and comments people, the main questions I have now are...

What cam would you go for..
If i went for 1600 heads machined, would I need to go for larger valves.... (some say no, would love your thoughts ...)

cheers

jedidan Officially Full-On Dubber

304 posts · joined Oct 2006 · 3 Aug 2009, 8:57 pm

#727186

hey jason, good luck with this - it sounds like a good project. Vw motors are so easy to work with (most times !), even if u did build
something with standard heads, they can be changed later on. So if u have a limited budget, work the best u can with that
(i know what its like building budget motors) - add to the engine as u get additional funds. Just make sure you concentrate on getting
the 'bottom' end to the best spec possible, so u never have to split the case or change P&B. You'll find you will pull the engine a few times
in its life anyway, so there will be plenty opportunities to mod on the go !

There are plenty of us around to give u a hand too if ur ever stuck !

cheers

Dan

IF I'M GOING TO HELL, I'M GOING IN A VW BEETLE

My Family's Swiss VW Buggy Legacy --------> CLICK HERE

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 4 Aug 2009, 5:41 am

#727268

I will agree that there is nothing wrong with the factory Magnesium case.
Finding a good one in used condition can be difficult though.

You wont find a cheaper machining job for a case than what stan offers,
unless it has no radii in the corners,
no steps in the bore for the cylinder and piston locations,
and the cases savers are just mowed off with the deck job.

I would charge twice that to bore and deck a case.
I have not seen or measured Stans work lately so cant say he is the best.
..But he does have a lot of engines out there, which it a pretty fair reputation.

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 4 Aug 2009, 6:02 am

#727270

colonel mustard wrote:Heads - I haven't really thought about yet.

When ever you have a goal of a hp figure
that is substantially more than the original,
the intake system should be the FIRST thing you plan.

Stock heads wont reach that goal unless you over cam the engine.(= rough idle wih Kads when no balance tubes)

Despite Daimos engine having lots of quality parts,
the primary area of power gains came from meticulous homework on the cylinder head and intake system.

Being your daily driver first priority should be purchases of the best parts for reliability.

Then...If there is any room left in your budget, then the cylinder head should be your first port of call to acheive a specific HP goal.

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 4 Aug 2009, 6:46 am

#727271

before you go planning the engine make sure you have a good case with dual relief vlaves and large oil galleries

no use trying to build an HP engine using an older style case

I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 11:46 am

#727306

Dave, You are a world of VW knowledge!
Sorry, but can you explain what you mean by over cam-ing the engine? Do you mean just because of the intake? (my thought was there is no poinnt going for a w110 with DRLA's, unless I go bigger heads... its all in the combo, right?)
You said reliable parts are first priority, and I agree. Any reconmendations? Yes, its a tight budget, but I don't really want anything to go wrong... a pull down isn't really what I want.

ok.... so what particular year/model number case am I looking for??

So far my idea's are:
Lightened Flywheel, 8 dowel - Got it already.

Clutch - Standard kit - Got it already, might need a better kit.

Crank - balanced German crank - $(from my tech)
Rods - Standard, balanced etc - $(from my tech)
Rockers - standard, rocker foot - $(from my tech)
Cam - Engle W100 - $150ish (classicveedub)

P/B - Mahle 90.5x69 - $...

Case - Standard 1600 -, machined by Stan Pobjoy - $400 (inc case) 'Lifters - suggestions? I was thinking the scat lightwieght or lift-a-lobe ones look sweet. Probably getting them from classicveedub.
Heads - standard 1600 machined for 90.5 barrels by stand pobjoy ($110 for machining)
Intake - Kadrons (paying too much apparently.)
Exhaust - Thunderbird with hotdog muffler - got it

disi - 009 with electronic - got it mini sump - got it (just have to extend the pickup tube when its out. (should I braze it on or just use the pipe clamp?)

maxi pump (with the filter on front as I will take the strainer out because of the mini sump) $.. (classicveedub)

Also just running a normal breather box, from the top of the air cleaner and from the alternator stand. standard fuel pump (alternator style).

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 7:42 pm

#727406

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1470 Does anyone know about these 'Los Banditos' cylinder heads? They are VW heads that are already modified.

"Los Banditos Dual Port Heads are genuine VW and loaded with go fast features that your engine needs. 14mm long reach spark plug threads, Racing Valve Guides, and Valve Seats, HiTec SUPERGRIP S/S Single Groove 21-4N Valves with Stelite tips, Hi-Rev Valve Springs, Chromoly Retainers, and Billet Steel Carbon Nitreated 7 Degree Valve Locks are installed in every Los Banditos Cylinder Head. Available in 40 x 35.5mm with Single or Dual Hi-Rev Valve Springs. Uses 14mm Spark Plugs."

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 4 Aug 2009, 8:28 pm

#727425

Los Banditos heads are based on 043 vw heads......you wont be able to get the compression ratio right for a 1776 as they dont have enough "meat" in the casting to allow you to decrease the size of the combustion chamber.

if you're only using a w100 cam then you may as well stay with standard heads IMO.

cb john Wolfsburg Wizard

470 posts · joined Jun 2007 · 4 Aug 2009, 8:33 pm

#727427

What kind of Hp are you after?

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 8:36 pm

#727430

How much would machining of a set of heads be to match? I'm guessing it would be fairly easy to find some? I think Classic have new ones, but they are like $250 each

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 8:43 pm

#727437

cb john wrote:What kind of Hp are you after?

Hopefully 80hp...... maybe. But Im just after more power than the 1600 (double would be great!!) and reliabilty, as its a daily!

cb john Wolfsburg Wizard

470 posts · joined Jun 2007 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:05 pm

#727451

Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:16 pm

#727458

cb john wrote:Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....

So I could argue, that I should be easily able to get 80hp with kadrons (which IMO are much better carbs) and that extra capacity and cam. yes?

cb john Wolfsburg Wizard

470 posts · joined Jun 2007 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:25 pm

#727462

colonel mustard wrote:
cb john wrote:Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....
So I could argue, that I should be easily able to get 80hp with kadrons (which IMO are much better carbs) and that extra capacity and cam. yes?

You do not have to argue, the fact of 1776 plus Kadrons / I do not share your opinion about them / is already giving you an increase in power beyond 67 horses
the only question is , who is going to put this together....

and the last say will have Mr.Dyno...

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:30 pm

#727466

colonel mustard wrote:So I could argue, that I should be easily able to get 80hp with kadrons (which IMO are much better carbs) and that extra capacity and cam. yes?

wait till you've had the pleasure of tuning the mongrel things

cb john Wolfsburg Wizard

470 posts · joined Jun 2007 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:34 pm

#727469

👍

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:39 pm

#727473

ha. I won't be.... haha. My mechanic raves about them, so he can set them up, jet them and tune them. He loves them, so he can teach me about them! I will be getting a different linkage however, I don't fancy one side coming off, which i hear can happen easily. the scat linkage will defs be an improvement.

So what would you suggest rather than the kadrons. I really dislike the 34pict3. I guess I would go for a 4 barrel if there was something suitable. Im really looking for that initial responce that the 34pict doesnt offer me at all.

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:43 pm

#727475

I reckon i could train a monkey to tune Kadrons.......they are piss easy.👍

re the linkage, you can get "race" clips for the ball and socket ends.......you will NEVER have the linkage come off while driving.

cb john Wolfsburg Wizard

470 posts · joined Jun 2007 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:49 pm

#727478

I do not push any brand on you...in Europe there are much more stringent laws, so what they do ? they build engines as we do, any cc you want and feed them with the centre mount stock looking carbie.And you can believe me , they do perform...so my advice to you is ...if you intend to use it as a daily drive, do not go much out of the stock way...in the same time you can achieve it with much more dollars spent ..😂

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:52 pm

#727481

Ah, cool Craig... My mate has his jump off occasionally, especially on a decent take off, he gets a bit of wheel tramp and boom... running on one side only..

Also, I asked this before, but wasn't too clean, any idea how much Stan charges to machine heads??

Thanks for all the tips guys... Iv learnt heaps already and have a few ideas now 🙂

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 4 Aug 2009, 9:56 pm

#727483

To machine a pair of heads for 90.5 is $110.👍

chunks54 Slammed & Awesome Dubber

84 posts · joined Aug 2009 · 4 Aug 2009, 10:56 pm

#727500

I would go for 94's every day of the week. Don't go too mild, you'll just end up regretting it! Theres nothing unstreetable about a well built larger displacement engine....

I've had my hands on a pair of those los banditos heads btw and they seem pretty good for the cash - I've not used them myself mind. They can be cut for decent CR, I have an engine builder friend who has used them in a heap of bus engine builds. They would benefit from some porting though. I would put a webcam 118 in there and set the CR to about 8.5:1, port the Los Banditos heads and go for it, it will be a nice enough driver to get along with but have the balls to back up its exhaust note.

Happiness is a Hot VW.

1954 Bug, 2276/Turbo

Turbo lag - that split second when the other guy thinks he has a chance

colonel mustard Son of Jim - Creator of Good

2,829 posts · joined Feb 2009 · 5 Aug 2009, 5:59 pm

#727622

Hey Chunks.... Can you give me a link for Webcam info?? (no jokes...)

Thanks Craig, very useful info there 🙂

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 · 6 Aug 2009, 7:37 am

#727754

cb john wrote:Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....

A formula Vee engine is NOT a stock standard engine,
and should not be used a guideline (or comparison) for a reliable street engine.

Other than exhaust and camshaft being non standrd,
the valvetrain geopmetry that is used to acheive extra lift is very hard on the valve train in the wear area.

But yes, with the right cylinder head part number,
and carefull assembly, I dont doubt those number at all.

I would say that 67hp is a reasonable number to acheive with a stock non ported,(but quality valve job) head in the right circumstances.

Higher numbers are possible with better intake system,(ie more flow) and optimised cam profile.
Better carb and manifold can make stock head flow more.

If you are ONLY after a HP number,
high compression and large cam will move that number up quite easily (within reason),
but the larger duration can make the engine run poorly at low rpm, and be very fuel-inefficient at low rpm.(worse than stock)....especialy with a shared venturi like the Kads.
But anything can be made to work.

Like any engine,
a combination of parts needs to match your goal.

My personal choice with any cylinder head you choose, would be some basic head and chamber work,
since most large valve heads with no hand work can flow less air than stock valves due to the shrouding of the valve in the chamber.
Even stock heads can benefit from a bit of time in those areas.

There are so many ways to acheive your particular goal,
but CB John is correct,
Carefull assembly with attention to detail will be the key to assembling what ever parts you choose.

Talk to your engine builder and machinist about what characteristics YOU want,
and not what people tell you that you need to win a dyno contest.

oh yeah...here you go...

http://www.alamomotorsports.com/webcam/vw.html

westi wrote:That's mad Alan.