I am lucky enough to have a 1776 (single carb, pretty much a stocker with bigger Los Banditos Heads) and a 1916 (twin kad, engle 110 cam and lost banditos heads) and neither are firebreathers. But both are excellent street cruise engines with loads of torque and will pull like a train all day at 100 kph. So. Which way do you go. I can tell you that the yanks have put nearly 50 years development into both these size engines, so there is something to be said for both. My two bobs worth.?? For a stockish car go the 1776, use the Los Banditos heads heads and dual kads. Its not stressed and it wont get hot so it will last a long time. And unless you are into blowing the ricers off at the lights, nobody is going to leave you behind. Whichever way you go mate, relax. Build the engine you want and learn to love it.😍
A formula Vee engine is NOT a stock standard engine,
and should not be used a guideline (or comparison) for a reliable street engine.
Other than exhaust and camshaft being non standrd,
the valvetrain geopmetry that is used to acheive extra lift is very hard on the valve train in the wear area.
Tis is not absolutely correct, the camshaft is Stock, the only difference is not running the muffler and generator / worth a few horses /
Max. allowed lift on intake is 9.6 mm and exhaust 9.2...
I really do not see the reason why this does not qualify as the stock engine.
Not to say, that aftermarket high lift cams and dual valve springs put a lot more strain on the valve train than Vee will ever do...
Just to clarify,
the formula vee engines use a "control cam" ground by Wade.
The stock cams I have measured only have between .300" and at best .330" lift.
So 9.2mm(.362") and 9.6mm(.378") is more than stock.
Very similar lift to the W100 and C25 profiles.
I can not recall the duration of the VEE "control" cam.,
but will say that most are installed very retarded
to move the torque and HP peaks well above the stock rpm location.
The Vees use a pushrod extension(or longer pushrods),
and set the geometry so that the adjuster tip is right on the edge.
This wears very fast.
As do the valve guides with the poor geometry.
,
You may argue that this is stock, but I will not agree so I guess we can agree to disagree.
You could say:
"it is a stock engine with aftermarket cam, custom exhaust, aftermarket
air cleaner, pushrods/mods, lightened components, extra sump capacity, loose clearances, performance valve job"
Heavier than stock valve springs do draw a very small amount of extra HP,
but if geometry is correct,they can actually extend the life of the valve train by providing better CONTROL
and there is no need to go to a dual spring in a lot of cases.
Correct geometry on all but the most radical RACE cam and rocker set ups
will require less adjutmsent and get less valvegude and seat wear than most vee engines..."per Mile".
Again everyone is welcome to disagree....that is what a forum is.
Good to see that Hutcho has tried something similar to what you are after Jason.
I think you will be very happy once you get it on the road.
You can always upgrade the heads at a future time.
Make sure you get those carbs jetted correctly,
and fit balance tubes to ALL the runners to smooth out the idle
Hey Dave, What do you think about these 'Los Banditios' heads... They seem like a good option to me considering the cost of machining is $110 a pair
But is there any reason why they won't be a good match??
The "features" they have seem good for the price,
but i have no hands on experience with them.
I would not consider putting them on the engine without checking them fully
and doing some basic blending and deburring of the ports and chambers.
Plus check spring shimming and pressures.
But that advice goes for ANY cylinder head you choose.
Engle have gone bump (cam pun intended!) so other manufacturers may be the better option anyway.
The extra cc's of a 1776 or a 1915 will rock if you're used to a standard whatever you do, but I GUARANTEE that within a few weeks you'll want MORE MORE MORE 😂
I started with a velocity stack, adjustable main jet and a pounded-bigger single port manifold (don't ask!).... the slope is VERY slippery....
Good luck mate.
Happiness is a Hot VW.
1954 Bug, 2276/Turbo
Turbo lag - that split second when the other guy thinks he has a chance
dangerous wrote:The "features" they have seem good for the price,
but i have no hands on experience with them.
I would not consider putting them on the engine without checking them fully
and doing some basic blending and deburring of the ports and chambers.
Plus check spring shimming and pressures.
But that advice goes for ANY cylinder head you choose.
Thats cause your Dave butler! Good advice, thanks 🙂
Took my mates 1776 for a drive yesterday (by myself.. hahaha, its more fun when they aren' there..) and it has a fair bit of guts. But Im just thinking about how much it actually is. About 2 months ago I dove Izac's squareback with 36 dell's on a 1600, and honestly, it had nearly as much power. so my thoughts are, how much more guts am I going to get out of my 1600 with the twin kadrons, and the better exhaust. A fair bit? yes (and It wont sound like a truck). My next thought is, how much more fuel efficient are kadrons than DRLA's?? and How much more power Could I get from a 1776 (like my mates) from DRLA's??? Yes, again all combo questions, but whats stupping me from wringing the 1600's neck (yes I know i could blow it...) before stepping up to the 1776??
If you gonna run the 1600 with Kads, drive it hard because you will need to get used to half throttle on a 1776, 69cw, 9.0cr, 86b, 1.4, good hand ported heads, 45 dells, 1 5/8 merged, good full flow oiling and dynamic balancing on all rotating parts, along with all the other goodies. If you want HP build it right, build it once, on the ragged edge and then tone it down for the street.
So many street engines out there built half assed and way too tame. IMO 😉
bitten by the bug..........several times
Craig Torrens6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
Simon, your setup is going to be sweet. Jealous. It will rock! (untill you want more power and go for IDF's then blow it apart and want to go biggger bigger biggggger!!)
So pretty much... You have probs seen my for sale threads (go buy some stuff!!) - the reason for this is that I'm going to just keep on plodding with the 1600 and try and get the setup the way I want it. (for the 1776 swap... in the future..)
So for anything to happen engine/exhaust wise in my car, i have to have some rear body damage fixed.
So, while the engine is out, Machine flywheel and change gearbox mounts.
Install new clutch. Install maxi oil pump (with the filter, as above post)
Install Extended sump. Breather box. (looking at the CSP type from Classic....) Powder coat tinware (get a 36hp style fan shroud!)
Install kadrons! (from Rod P - scat linkage!!) new coil. chrome fire wall. Exhaust. bolt it together and hope its go go go!
fish26 wrote:So many street engines out there built half assed and way too tame. IMO 😉
yeah I agree with you on this...........I have a 132hp 1916 in the ragtop and its fine on the street.
Screw as much out of them I say! 😂
Have to agree here
Too easy to have a mismatched piece of crap as so many a/c vw engines seem to be built this way. Not to mention many of the home AND pro built jobs I've seen that can't even set up the nice hipo parts you talk of.
With the good fuel we have now (98) and cheap parts available, go wild when you finally decide on a combo :-)
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
Matt, you on the money re: good fuel and cheap parts, I'm thinking of building a street 1776 with some nice welded heads, FK87 cam, 12:1cr, 48IDF, running on E85.
Just gotta find a good box, Berg 5 is out of my price range. Maybe have to make a call to Mr Danger.
