This isn’t a criticism of people who have converted because I’m very tempted to do so, but my head and heart are in disagreement.
At the risk of over thinking things this is where I’m at.
I have a 74 L Bug, which currently has the stock 1600, and I’m madly saving with the aim of one day making it a really nice daily driver (i.e. very strong/fast engine) that I can also use in club events etc. At present I drive it a couple of days a week.
In my head there’s no argument, a EJ20T would be cheaper than a strong air cooled, more powerful, more reliable, more economical, quieter etc etc, and I should do the conversion, but my heart struggles with the idea.
To my heart the aircooled flat four is intrinsic to what makes the car a VW. Despite the fact that the Subaru engine is essentially a modern interpretation of it, it still is fundamentally different. I can’t get past the fact that the aircooled engine is not just the heart of the car, but the soul as well.
The question I keep asking myself is: If I want to put a EJ20T in the bug, why not just buy an old WRX, why put it in the bug?
My question for those with a engine conversion is: What still makes it a VW for you, rather than a Subaru/whatever?
Look forward to your thoughts! 🙂
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make 60 or 70 hp.
If you fit a WRX motor and do a lot of the work yourself you spend much less than this and easily have twice the hp.
My old yellow 1302 had a water-cooled Kombi motor in it, when I sold it I converted the car back to air-cooled without any dramas.
I agree with you. it is likely for it to be cheaper to go EJ.... but aircooled keeps it orignial. in the end, its your car and no one can tell you what to do with it. 🙂 i like the idea of 1915's its enough for me...
retrotech-according to street machine mag in our own way, seen old holdens with LS1s etc in them? 240z's with sr20's Rb26s etc?
that said im also twisted enough to like the idea of a k20a (honda integra type r) into a 60's mini 😁 < alternatively check out awdsupermini on youtube haha
todays mechanical refinement in yesterdays style 🙂
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 🙂
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
I feel your pain. I have gone through what you are going through now and still haven't finally decided on a solution. In the end, it is up to you to decide what makes it a vw or not. I know it would be more expensive to get a hot vw motor but at the same time, I don't believe it is as cheap as people make out to fit a subi in. By the time you get it engineered and pay for all the little changes you make with wiring/plumbing/fuel injection stuff, it all adds up. What you get though is smooth modern reliable performance though. My preference would probably be T4 power instead of EJ22 or if you want big power, fit a subi turbo.
i wouldn't question a conversion if they had a vw badge stamped into a block of a modern, efi, and at least 120+ hp DOHC motor.
But all this east west inline 4 buisness just won't fit as nicely in the decklid, despite those gti golf motors being quite impressive.
In honesty, i'm keen on subaru, but worry about criticism. Not that i care what people say, but sure you make it to have go to have fun, but its also a social statement / show off sesh! Putting on a show is half the fun.
Yogie wrote:I know it would be more expensive to get a hot vw motor but at the same time, I don't believe it is as cheap as people make out to fit a subi in. By the time you get it engineered and pay for all the little changes you make with wiring/plumbing/fuel injection stuff, it all adds up. What you get though is smooth modern reliable performance though.
thats exactly the reason im doing my thread so people can see exactly whats involved and im keeping track of all the costs even down to silly little $4 bolts or grommets.
Craig Torrens6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
I'm with craig, don't be sucked in by the "cheap" tag.
however, if you want a real handling, club car you'll spend that money anyway jap engine or aircooled motor.
other thing worth saying is this. Subaru just took the VW engine, fixed all the weak bits and put proper 20century heads on it. just remember, the Ej20T won the WRC more than once. Anything that good is quite an engine. The SR20DET can't boast that.
Thanks for the various comments guys. I'm trying to justify converting the bug by saying that when I buy a Ghia to have as another car in the garage after the bug is completed, I can have that as a nice aircooled cruiser. Just as well my timeframe for completion on both is 17 years 😀
I'm under no illusion that conversion would cheap, especially as most work would have to be done by professionals given my lack of skill and knowledge. But... the brakes, suspension and gearbox are all in line for upgrading whichever path I take, so those costs for all intents and purposes equal out.
Aircooled motor would also be 2 litres or more, EFI and possibly forced induction, so all of those things result in the cost being VERY large (especially if you start plumbing for intercoolers etc).
Sadly the reality is I'm a few years away from having sufficient bickies to go down either path, so I can equivocate for some time yet, keeping my motivation up with this site and VW magazines.
Cheers
Craig
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
I think the whole "but it's not a VW if it has a different engine" is ridiculous. People put webers carbs, empi wheels, empi / scat / CB / autocraft / other heads, cases, cranks, valves, crankshafts, etc into their VW's and aren't worried that the parts weren't made by VW. Count how many actully VW parts are on a high powered "VW" drag motor.
I have found that at shows many people love the conversion and want to talk for hours. Those people are very open minded and strangely not many of them come to VW forums. The VW forum people tend to have a higher proportion of so called "purists" and therefore if you hang around here you get the impression that not many people like the conversions. Although having said that this area has been growing in recent years.
I did my conversion because I liked my car but didn't like the VW engine. I had many VW engines before changing to the V6. Now I have a car that is way nicer to drive, and has digital climate control air conditioning. 🙂
Hey Craig - im kinda the same, wanna get another 'aircooled' vw post the conversion. Reubs has the best of both worlds!
I like the bug, the shape and the character - engine wise? Sure its cool to say its fast and air cooled. BUT, i think anyone who puts a 1916 in would probably get bored and want to get more hp - that costs lots - then they get bored of that and go again - and so on. IF you go suby, go turbo, that way you can control what you want. the fact that you reach to the ignition from outside the car, turn it, and the EJ20T fires up straight away is a pleasure too.
Cost wise of a suby, depends. Ask Jakriz what he spent. My halfcut cost $3600, it was an 02 STI - you dont have to go down that track - i did it the expensive way - there may be no need to, but i have more power on tap if a choose to go faster - though im sure 200hp will be plenty for a while (Brad reckons ill get bored of that!).
Depends what you like about your vw. Aircooled was loud, crappy on really hot days at 100k's and not as smooth as the suby - though aircooled has additional character. MInd you, tell people you have a WRX motor (or STI) in a beetle and the reaction is funny as!
I've been playing close attention to Joel's conversion, and have tried to track everything down that I can about Jak Rizzo's car both on here and on German Look (sadly many of the photos seem to have gone AWOL when the GL site went down for a while). I think I need to have a beer and a chat with those that have done the conversion. That's my plan with you Mick, but I'm waiting for the job to finish. I have a sneeking suspicion that sitting in the passenger's seat of the 58 would be enough to convince me!
Cheers
Craig
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
id like to make a point here, craig, qwendolyns master has actually pointed out the fact you SHOULD upgrade gearbox brakes & suspension for EITHER, just because its aircooled doesnt mean $$$ shouldnt be spent on those aswell, the point about those is in a sense pointless, you just have less of a choice legally if you go wrx 🙂
on that note the things you should factor in is plumbing, electrical, & body/pan mods to suit as these are the things that make the differences between air & water regardless, add up the bang for buck of say, a 2.xL T4 based turbo compared to buying an ej20t exclude brakes gearbox & suspension $$ for the start then work it out...
if theres arguement, read the 1st part about the legality & sensibility of it all, hope that makes sense
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 🙂
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less
Craig Torrens6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
Baja Wes wrote:It can be done cheap. I did my conversion with rear disc brakes quite cheaply. I listed all of my costs here; http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/january.html
The VW forum people tend to have a higher proportion of so called "purists" and therefore if you hang around here you get the impression that not many people like the conversions.
I really don't think this is such an issue............the main problem I see is that unskilled people think that buying a $500 jap motor is a solution to there problems, and that it costs bugger all to do the conversions. This is NOT true for someone that is not able to do the work themselves. Yes yes Wes we all know yours was done cheaply, and yes yes we all know that Jak did his cost affectively as well, but you guys did all the work yourself and are skilled..BUT ask Mick how much it has cost him, or speak to Buggy Brad to find out how much he charged to do the conversion for a "drive in, drive out" conversion.
And re the "upgrades"....you don't need rear disc brakes, uprated front brakes, uprated torsion bars, and a fully modified gbox for an aircooled upgrade...Yes yes I know its favourable, but not mandatory.
I have no issues with conversions, just the perception that they are cheap.
Thats exactly right Craig T, the conversion will vary considerably with regards to how much u are able/willing to do yourself. I did my conversion for $3800, engineered , on the road, BUT, I have access to many things that others don't, Father is a Toolmaker, Inlaws own a wreckers, good mate owns a muffler shop, Pauly wired up the Microtech etc etc. look after my gearbox as well. my car was also already setup for a high powered donk with big brakes etc, so no money was spent on the car.
Again, just note i didn't take the cheaper path. Even if a shop did my conversion, if we did it more on the cheap the price would of been different.
I've done my own conversion before (Rotary in a 68 beetle), didn't have web access, was 18 years old and knew nothing about cars. IT was time consuming but fun - i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking job, not just a job that works.
There is probably enough people that have done it now for those keen to convert to have a go at doing most of it themselves. ITs all about the right bits and combination at the end of the day, and there is proof of that now.
I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make 60 or 70 hp.
Mick058 wrote:i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking job, not just a job that works.
I'm glad Mick that u did yours different to most other conversions, it would be boring if it was "just another" wrx powered bug. I think it's something very special, I'm pretty sure there are conversions out there with zip ties holding the engine in LOL
regards
Jak
Mick058 wrote:i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking job, not just a job that works.
I'm glad Mick that u did yours different to most other conversions, it would be boring if it was "just another" wrx powered bug. I think it's something very special, I'm pretty sure there are conversions out there with zip ties holding the engine in LOL
regards
Jak
but they are the good quality zip ties🤪
😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲
you get a nice smooth running motor
you can add air/conditioning
and when you pass every one on the HWY all that they
see is that they are being passed by a bloody old veedub.🤪
ps I think that you would have the same problem with any car that you want to race, I am pretty sure those evo and wrx owners still spend thousands on em to get more power .
😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲
I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make 60 or 70 hp.
I don't know that I can really add any value to either agruement, for or against.
I have a wrx powered beetle because that is what I wanted. My conversion is probably over complicated regarding how the conversion done, however so is the car, modified to the exteme. On the other hand I've just had Dave Butler hype up my aircooled 1916 and will be installing fuel injection to it, again, because it was what I wanted to do. Neither of my cars are daily drivers, and I have no intention using either of them as a daily driver (my 58 was for around 2 years with the old 1916 twin carb setup). Sure a stock wrx engine is cheaper then a hot 1916, but my purple bug probably owes me twice that of my 58. Future aspirations are for a 20b powered bug, but that is another story...as well as being able to afford the 'dream'.
Both of my cars are just toys to have fun with, and as Wes keeps saying... 'waste money on'... Volksies are my passion/obession so I'm happy...
At the end of the day I think you need to determine what your expectations of the car is (daily driver, reliable, etc etc) and what your 'real' budget is...
