Dont use E10 fuel

VolksVair Officially Full-On Dubber

252 posts · joined Apr 2010 · 8 Jun 2010, 7:25 pm

#783647

Hi All, I am still involved in the marine industry until my Vw & corvair venture gets fully underway, just an interesting observation, we service & repair many boats and lately, we have had a run of a few inboard motors with sticky valves and bordering on seizing in their guides. Turns out the fuel available from the marina is the cheap & nasty E10 that is also available from some service stations. Now I know you lot are all switched on, but for those that think they are getting cheap fuel by putting this crap into their pride & joys, THINK AGAIN!! infact even the crap that they call unleaded is below standard!! want to look after your motor, put premium in the tank. I know its expensive but at least your valve train is getting some form of lubrication. If you still want to use the basic unleaded, buy some two stroke oil and add 200mm for every forty litres of petrol. I rang a few automotive machine shops and they can NOT keep up with a major influx of cylinder head work!!🤪 cheers Frank

Adventure Before Dimentia

robb Officially Full-On Dubber

279 posts · joined Apr 2010 · 8 Jun 2010, 7:50 pm

#783659

hi volksvair if you use premium do you still have to use an additive such as nulon i have been useing it it with normal unleaded

VolksVair Officially Full-On Dubber

252 posts · joined Apr 2010 · 8 Jun 2010, 8:02 pm

#783662

Hi Rob, no need for any additives for premium fuels, nulon is good for normal unleaded. I used to run premium in my harley and allways threw in a small bottle of octane boost but that was just a psychological thing🤪 cheers Frank

Adventure Before Dimentia

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 8 Jun 2010, 8:21 pm

#783669

Hi

The bad news is that all 91 ron unleaded is going to be E10, so it like 95 or 98 form then on, bloody greenies.

Steve

ian.mezz I never said, I could write or spell

3,913 posts · joined Sep 2004 · 8 Jun 2010, 8:35 pm

#783678

yes they are already changing the green pumps back to yellow so everybody is tricked into buying it.
Its all about profit🥲🥲

😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲

amazeer Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,029 posts · joined Nov 2005 · 8 Jun 2010, 8:39 pm

#783681

That might just be a NSW thing, not sure. The pamphlets and pumps say its a NSW government regulation.

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 8 Jun 2010, 10:02 pm

#783712

Yes, its a NSW Government thing...
as Ethanol in petrol is illegal in Westen Australia

[at least it was last time I looked]

ALL New service stations in NSW will have E10 instead of normal unleaded..
and then normal 91RON unleaded will be phased out totally by July next year.. Large Servos first...

We have a new BP servo in Scone...
NO normal unleaded... ONLY E10...
the Large Yellow ETHANOL stickers have now been reduced to a small size...

and where it wasn't suitable for many uses...

it seems now its OK to use it in everything....??

I filled My beetle up twice with BP E10...
put in My new SVDA dizzy and tried to tune the engine...
I was thinking of taking to someone else to tune..

went to the Nationals in Sydney...
Car went like a hairy goat [that means terrible..lol]
filled up with Unleaded in Sydney and drove home... 300 kms
beetle went great...

I have now tuned it...
and it does all the right things...

My Son tells Me that Normal unleaded is still available at many small service stations...

so, I will be looking now for 91RON without ethanol...
or going back to 95RON unleaded..

Sooner or later We will have to make the transition to PREMIUM unleaded fuel... 95 or 98RON..

LEE

VolksVair wrote:Hi All, I am still involved in the marine industry until my Vw & corvair venture gets fully underway, just an interesting observation, we service & repair many boats and lately, we have had a run of a few inboard motors with sticky valves and bordering on seizing in their guides. Turns out the fuel available from the marina is the cheap & nasty E10 that is also available from some service stations. Now I know you lot are all switched on, but for those that think they are getting cheap fuel by putting this crap into their pride & joys, THINK AGAIN!! infact even the crap that they call unleaded is below standard!! want to look after your motor, put premium in the tank. I know its expensive but at least your valve train is getting some form of lubrication. If you still want to use the basic unleaded, buy some two stroke oil and add 200mm for every forty litres of petrol. I rang a few automotive machine shops and they can NOT keep up with a major influx of cylinder head work!!🤪 cheers Frank

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

ian.mezz I never said, I could write or spell

3,913 posts · joined Sep 2004 · 8 Jun 2010, 10:11 pm

#783716

yeah the smaller old petrol stations cant keep E10 because their in ground fuel tankS are to old,🤪🤪🤪🤪

😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 8 Jun 2010, 10:15 pm

#783718

ian.mezz wrote:yeah the smaller old petrol stations cant keep E10 because their in ground fuel tankS are to old,🤪🤪🤪🤪

that may explain why I've seen many country service stations being dug up and closed for a while.. then reopen...??

I haven't checked the local Shell servo to see if they still have normal unleaded...??

it was dug up and closed a few weeks ago...

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

h fractals - an ever changing lifestyle

7,671 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 8 Jun 2010, 10:24 pm

#783721

I use 98 with flashlube always n haven't struck any probs over the last 6 or 7 or so years now
works for me

fractal geometry; the inner most limits of mind altering abuse

Fantasy http://seventhchronicle.com

Z = Z2 + C1/r = 1/0 = infinity

Barrels www.barrelman.com.au

VW Workshop - aircooledgarage.com.au
allcooled.com.au

vw54 Administrator Always Waiting 4 Friday

16,723 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 9 Jun 2010, 6:58 am

#783740

yes they are already changing the green pumps back to yellow so everybody is tricked into buying it.

that happened to me at a BP service station didnt have my glasses on

the bad thing about E10 is that it deteriorates the rubber in the fuel lines

I did a test on the high pressure line i have fitted in my car as it runs EFI and the hose stood up to the petrol so you can purchase the HP fuel line from Pirtek and use on cars running E10

I read it on FACEBOOK so it must be true

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=91278&page=1#pid848630

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=63561&page=1#pid624099

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=4832&page=1#pid452603

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=60650&page=1#pid574409

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 8:42 am

#783745

I use E10 in my commodore. Runs great in that as appose to regular. the V6 doesn't like unleaded 🙁
things I noted: ran with more power, stable idle (no stalling unlike UL) runs cooler, economy was slightly better. My concussion was that it was exact performance in all ways to premium in my commy.

VW ? i can't say the same as I only run 95 RON prem in it.

ethanol advantage: high RON and AKI
Disadvantage: not suitable for old technologies. ie heads requiring leaded fuels.

My 2cents.

link on some info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating#Research_Octane_Number_.28RON.29

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 · 9 Jun 2010, 8:53 am

#783747

Carby engines should NOT run E10 without rejetting and then using it always.....NOT FOR ME. 98 preferebly all the time, and BP is up to 10% better in economy and performance.

Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 9:10 am

#783750

I am going to get my commy a new EEPROM (aka tune) to recalibrate all the changes I have made to it.
guess its like re jetting in the old school sense.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

1500S Custom Title Time!

1,418 posts · joined Mar 2005 · 9 Jun 2010, 10:27 am

#783756

68AutoBug wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:yeah the smaller old petrol stations cant keep E10 because their in ground fuel tankS are to old,🤪🤪🤪🤪

that may explain why I've seen many country service stations being dug up and closed for a while.. then reopen...??

I haven't checked the local Shell servo to see if they still have normal unleaded...??

it was dug up and closed a few weeks ago...

LEE

Noticed another new servo going in on the Muswellbrook side of Scone Lee. What's that one? Another BP to get you going either way!

Not sure if a carbie engine is the same as injected but as I've posted here before, a Commodore uses around 10-15% more fuel if E10 is used on the 400km run to Tamworth. By using it, you are using the same amount of regular unleaded plus 100cc of ethanol. Maybe the Greenies and Politicians should do some engineering mathematics to see they are saving nothing, just costing everyone more.

Maybe if they started taxing bullshit, Canberra and the state governments would raise enough loot to give the rest of us a 50% tax cut!!

DH

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 · 9 Jun 2010, 11:25 am

#783765

1500S wrote:Not sure if a carbie engine is the same as injected but as I've posted here before, a Commodore uses around 10-15% more fuel if E10 is used on the 400km run to Tamworth. By using it, you are using the same amount of regular unleaded plus 100cc of ethanol. Maybe the Greenies and Politicians should do some engineering mathematics to see they are saving nothing, just costing everyone more.

Maybe if they started taxing bullshit, Canberra and the state governments would raise enough loot to give the rest of us a 50% tax cut!!

DH

👍 👍😂😂

Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 12:58 pm

#783781

my commodore used to get around 330km per tank on E10 and only 250km on UL. I don't know but it hates unleaded, must be to low octane for it but it shouldn't as its on series 2 buick!?!?!
My new setup which is rebuild everything minus the shell, now it gets 550-600Km per tank with E10. holy molly! yes did a few mods 😀

I know a guy with a XR6 turbo and he only runs E85 as it wont run right on even supper prem. Highly modified though.

With ethanol the higher the compression the more power and efficacy engines tend to run. think about this > High RON is harder to ignite and burns slower, therefore takes more heat or pressure to unlock those BTU's.
Advantage of this is that its less likely to detonate by itself. So if you put high RON fuel into an engine that is designed to run a lower RON the engine will NOT release the full energy from the fuel resulting it worse
performance than lower RON fuel (also = bad economy). Doing the opposite by running low RON in high comp engine will detonate and cause, well damage.

So if you have a high compression engine, running ethanol will give you better economy simply because lower RON runs less efficient.

This is just based entirely on engine design and can be different depending on which design. I have experimented on my V6 for well over 50,000 and result speak for them selves.

this VW country here so most of this doesn't apply unless you motor is running high comp of course and modified heads to suit.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

ian.mezz I never said, I could write or spell

3,913 posts · joined Sep 2004 · 9 Jun 2010, 2:46 pm

#783793

race cars use that E85 and they use about 3 times more petrol to do the same amount of laps.🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 5:21 pm

#783824

yes high % ethanol is less mileage but not that much.

here is some info. lol 3% different in E10 from regular. lol I think the 4 extra RON out weighs that anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 9 Jun 2010, 5:30 pm

#783826

thats what it says on paper but what you get at the pumps is usually a different story
so many suppliers water it down further

even if i had a new car that was compatible with it like mums 206 pug cabrio says in the fuel door its E10 compatible i still wouldnt run it.

Im lucky the subi isnt fussy what it runs on but i never ran vw motors on less than 95.
the regular 91 is cats piss

I noticed yesterday one of the big caltex servos here is no longer selling regular unleaded, I'm sure others will follow suite soon

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 5:36 pm

#783828

errr caltex. yeah I hear that they water down. I got fuel from them a few times and every time it ran crap.
I use united, BP or shell.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 9 Jun 2010, 5:41 pm

#783830

It was the BPs here all owned by the same family that got busted big time for watering down

1500S Custom Title Time!

1,418 posts · joined Mar 2005 · 9 Jun 2010, 7:09 pm

#783843

vlad01 wrote:yes high % ethanol is less mileage but not that much.

here is some info. lol 3% different in E10 from regular. lol I think the 4 extra RON out weighs that anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Maybe the Commodores we have are old compared to yours! 🥲 One is a VY 2004 and the other is a 2007 VE and both vehicles return at best 10% more fuel useage on a number of trips up the New England to Tamworth using E 10, the VE being the worst on one trip at near 15% more fuel. What you lose on the way up onto the New England area, you gain coasting more down hill on the return. This gives a clear 800 km trip of average conditions to give a clear view of the economy with very little traffic, especially on the Putty Rd section.

After smelling a rat, we started filling with regular unleaded and both cars returned to their "normal" consumption, the VY always being just that bit better at around 8.5 litres/100km on each run EXCEPT yesterday when I gave the VY a bit of a hurry-up when a "white van man" gave me the $hits near Bulga. 😂 Didn't want him in front through the windy section!

Even at a mere at worst 2% more E10 fuel used costs more than the regular unleaded price generally so once again, it's not really saving us money OR saving the planet.

I will always dispute that these cars get better economy and power using E10 unless they have been specifically tuned to only use E10. Maybe that would make a difference. If we use methanol, ethanol etc the consumption is always more than petrol. Add some nitromethane and away goes more economy. Anyone tried to add 10% nitromethane to petrol to see what that does. 🙅

DH

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 7:24 pm

#783850

mine newer !?! haha nice one. mine is an old VP commodore. My friend has a VY and his hates anything less that 98 RON and yes his economy get worse the lower the grade of fuel, naturally of course.

What happen to the good old leaded days. geez! everyone can agree that super was the shizzle.
haha red gold 😀

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

1500S Custom Title Time!

1,418 posts · joined Mar 2005 · 9 Jun 2010, 8:29 pm

#783871

vlad01 wrote:mine newer !?! haha nice one. mine is an old VP commodore. My friend has a VY and his hates anything less that 98 RON and yes his economy get worse the lower the grade of fuel, naturally of course.

What happen to the good old leaded days. geez! everyone can agree that super was the shizzle.
haha red gold 😀

Thought something must be wrong your one if it was only getting that on a tank full. 300km! We had a VN back in '88 and that got at least to Coffs Harbour, maybe Grafton on a tank. An EF ford with a slightly bigger tank (68 litres??) made it to Grafton with some to spare. With the later models we get well into Victoria down the Hume from here at Richmond on a full tank, near 700 km from memory but not much left. The bloody Type 3 Notch gets better economy than that VP of yours!

Enough of the rubbish Falcadores!😂 The VW gets around 9 litres/100 on a run and I've been using regular unleaded since rebuild in 2001, however it's only done around 11,000 km!! Most likely use premium now if the E10 crapp takes over. Only United and Caltex here now as BP in the metro area only have E10.

DH

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 8:47 pm

#783877

Yes there was a lot wrong with it. injectors, O2 sensor, auto shifting to low rpm. Now that all fixed with the following list

http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/vn-vp-holden-commodore-1988-1993/138317-thanks-everyone.html
much better now. now thats done 😂 lest all forget about the crumpledores and start with the VW. btw the commy is only my daily drive.

Also I beg to differ on the type 3 being better on economy. dam mine took 4 tanks to get from bondi to kyneton in victoria.
but then again the motor was totaled by the time I got back. so much for low k motors driven by old ladies 🙁

70,000km original engine wasted 😬 😢
oh well plan to tos it anyways for EFI turbo.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 9 Jun 2010, 8:54 pm

#783881

Found some "normal" unleaded in Belmont Caltex Woolies
today...
wasn't in My beetle so I'll still have to do the rounds to find some of the good stuff..

Fellow at the Woolies caltex says that they will have normal unleaded until next year....

but, maybe He only knows what He's heard..
that the government in NSW is phasing out Unleaded and phasing IN 91RON with ethanol by July 2011..

I won't be buying E10 again...

Maybe the ethanol is too dry for the valve guides??

so, I might add an additive in the fuel for a while..

and use NONE E10 fuels from now on...
including the lawn mower... lol..

whipper snipper.... ??

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 9 Jun 2010, 9:03 pm

#783885

yeah I see your logic.
lawn mower is A.C.E

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

1500S Custom Title Time!

1,418 posts · joined Mar 2005 · 9 Jun 2010, 9:13 pm

#783887

vlad01 wrote:Yes there was a lot wrong with it. injectors, O2 sensor, auto shifting to low rpm. Now that all fixed with the following list

http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/vn-vp-holden-commodore-1988-1993/138317-thanks-everyone.html
much better now. now thats done 😂 lest all forget about the crumpledores and start with the VW. btw the commy is only my daily drive.

Also I beg to differ on the type 3 being better on economy. dam mine took 4 tanks to get from bondi to kyneton in victoria.
but then again the motor was totaled by the time I got back. so much for low k motors driven by old ladies 🙁

70,000km original engine wasted 😬 😢
oh well plan to tos it anyways for EFI turbo.

Never trust "a little old lady" as well as many engine re-conditioners!!! The good VW engine is the one you build yourself if you want reliability! That way you know what goes into it and the labour costs are really low! I trusted Repco in 1968 to grind the big end journals for me after I'd ground the mains to near max design limit on 0.010" first under only to find they had given me near 0.002" built in wear before I run it! They seemed a bit shocked at the sight of a micrometer being produced before paying. Got a good discount and they still had to grind to next size.

Hope the EFI goes well for you.

DH

Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds

2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 9 Jun 2010, 9:13 pm

#783888

How did petrol compare in the 'olden days'? Not quite as well as you might think.

Laws specifying the octane rating of petrols for sale did not come in in Australia until 1955. The octane ratings, and changes over the years, were as follows:

Jun 1955 - Standard 79 octane, Super 90 Octane
Aug 1959 - Standard 83, Super 93
Nov 1962 - Standard 85, Super 95
Apr 1964 - Standard 87, Super 97
Aug 1968 - Standard 89, Super 98
Aug 1979 - Standard 89 and 92, Super 97
July 1985 - Unleaded 91, Premium Unleaded 93
July 1987 - Premium Unleaded 95

As for Ethanol - it may or may not be good for cars, but should be avoided in boats - ethanol absorbs water.

From the Car Advice website: "Petrol contains more energy than ethanol. If you burn one litre of ethanol you get 23.5 million joules of energy. If you burn one litre of petrol you get 33.5 million joules. That means there’s about 30 per cent less energy in a tank full of ethanol, compared with the same volume of petrol. And that means there’s about three per cent less energy in E10 compared with regular petrol. And that means fuel consumption goes up by three percent if you use E10. So if it’s not at least three per cent cheaper than regular petrol, you’re ripping yourself off. It also means if you ran a car on 100 per cent ethanol, fuel consumption would increase by more than 40 per cent. (Although it’s not advisable to do that. Car engines don’t like to start in the cold on E100. Which is why E85 is pretty much the upper limit for ethanol/petrol blends.) You need to burn 1.4 litres of ethanol to get the same energy as one litre of petrol. (Cruising range drops on E10, too – something long-distance drivers need to consider.)

http://www.caradvice.com.au/70035/ethanol-versus-petrol-the-basics/