My biggest issue is the people around me. They are scary as hell. tailgating at 115 during severe storm at 8 at night when you cant see even 5m 🙅🙅
The worst part was that 8/10 people that day were doing it. I just pulled over to the right lane and stayed there coz my car was aqua planing over 70 in the shinny left lane.
lol then I got a few people get pissed at me coz when they got level with my car the pulled into the right lane to overtake when I am in the right lane even though the left lane was wide open
with no car? ?????????? force of habit?? I don't know people are f**ked
I ride my bike and the train to work now. I am afraid for my car🥲......hmm and my life to I guess.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
as everyone said besides the guy who disagree
It's usually driver's inability to handle the vehicle and pay attention to the road, signs and signals
and temporary lapse in judgement
My sister was near a fatality at 10kmh, doing a u turn on a bend with double lines, got hersefl t-boned.
Judging from my own news report barometer road deaths are mainly in 2 categories.
Under 25's particularly males are typically in the single vehicle hit tree/powerpole category. Fairly often its the passengers that are killed not the driver. This could vary rarely be blamed on anything but speed. The car didnt leave the road because it is going too slow. You could argue that it was the drivers fault because he didnt have the sense to slow for the bend or the skill to get around it. But you can be sure that if you raised the speed limit on roads that the average speed would increase and there would be more drivers slidig off the road.
The over 25's seem to be eliminating themselves and misfortunate innocents mostly in overtaking manouvres. The Princes and Pacific Highways Picton and Appin Roads are littered with head on collisions. Why? I dont think the roads are that bad. There's a line up the middle and you just need to keep to the left of that line if there are cars coming the other way. People just cant judge the distance it seems. If you raise the speed limits not everyone is going to go faster. Plenty of people dont do the existing speed limit. I know people on this forum who wont do 110 on the freeway. I've been to NT twice before they reigned in the speed limits. After the initial "lets see what she'll do" moments I just settled on around 130. Other people would have settled on 150-160, people with caravans would have settled on 100. So when some people are doing 80 and others are doing 130 you will get even more misjudgements and more people killed.
I agree that speed doesnt kill in all cases and that it is possible for it to be OK. People just need to slow down for bends and when they get caught behind a slow car just be patient enough to not gamble on an overtaking move. But unfortunately we have to make laws for the lowest common denominator. I think we'r elucky that we arent quite at the low level.
Trying to use motorsport as any justification is just silly. There are several fatalities every year in this country due to motorsport crashes. And thats in an environment when all the cars (should) be travelling in the same direction, they've all got helmets and harnesses on and full cages. Pretty much every time you watch a race on TV there is an accident that would have been a fatality in a road car or at best a serious injury. Mark Webber is on borrowed time, he has walked away from 2 potentially fatal cars that have taken flight. Mark Skaife came extremely close at Eastern Creek when he didnt make turn one and went straght ahead. His commodore twisted and bent like cheese despite having 100 metres of chrome moly cage. Craig Lowndes had a major rollover at Calder Park. Peter Brock (who incidently had an appalling driving record so there goes the argument that more race tracks would naturally slow people down) is no longer with us, Ayrton Senna no longer with us...
1st hand experience my first acident was involving speed... but i was stupid enough to do that on such a road... if i knew my limits, i wouldn't have done that speed. Like as though that SPEED was a result/biproduct of my LACK OF training and knowledge.
the 2nd acident only happened to be a tyre squealing near miss, at a steady 70km wide open road... with a large tip truck swerving into my lane while i was there... Those wheel nuts were 10 cm from my drivers window...
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
Might get in trouble for a triple post here, but the over 65's seem to get themselves into a lot trouble too. Always hearing of them driving out the driveway and into the house across the road, off the top of mult level car parks, through the garage wall and into the swimming pool, from a standstill onto footpaths and running over pedestrians.
bajachris88 wrote:1st hand experience my first acident was involving speed... but i was stupid enough to do that on such a road... if i knew my limits, i wouldn't have done that speed. Like as though that SPEED was a result/biproduct of my LACK OF training and knowledge.
This is because you're a young schmuck and would have pushed your limits even if they had been tattood in 18 point Arial across your forehead!!! I can say this categorically because I was a young schmuck once with dozens of young scmuck mates who did exactly the same. Only difference to the dead guys and us is luck.
amazeer wrote:Might get in trouble for a triple post here, but the over 65's seem to get themselves into a lot trouble too. Always hearing of them driving out the driveway and into the house across the road, off the top of mult level car parks, through the garage wall and into the swimming pool, from a standstill onto footpaths and running over pedestrians.
Over 65's? Who's next on your hit list - Women? Gays? Asians?
Who are you to be making judgments, and 'casting the first stone'?
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
OK yea ur right . i agree... luck certainly gave me a good learnin lesson...
fair statement.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
HappyDaze wrote:amazeer wrote:Might get in trouble for a triple post here, but the over 65's seem to get themselves into a lot trouble too. Always hearing of them driving out the driveway and into the house across the road, off the top of mult level car parks, through the garage wall and into the swimming pool, from a standstill onto footpaths and running over pedestrians.
Over 65's? Who's next on your hit list - Women? Gays? Asians?
Who are you to be making judgments, and 'casting the first stone'?
Ummm OK, would it help if I revise it to make it over 75's? I'm just making it up out of the memories of my mind.. radio, tv, newspaper, internet news.
But in curiosity I just googled "crashes off carpark roof" went to the first 3 links provided.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/car-park-crash-woman-dead-after-being-crushed-against-wall-20091116-igma.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/03/1054406195892.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10475343
First one gives an age, second one doesnt, third one quotes a wtnes saying elderly. Thats good enough for me to pick a trend there.
AND THEN i searched for elderly head on crash and they were all elderly people. AND THEN I searched for "elderly 40 year old male p plate head on tree carpark collision" and came back with nothing relevant so there beit the first stone.
I just dont recall often or ever hearing about a "person of mature age and multiple years of driving experience" losing control of their car on a bend and hitting a power pole or tree. Surely you cant be saying thats not P plater domain. I attempted it a few times myself back then, havent done it since. Not even close.
But I do hear maybe every six months of someone in that category having a spot of bother due to selecting the wrong gear.
The web search of Princes Highway head on colision proves nothing of my assumption though, they were mostly mid 20's where an age is given.
I've often wondered why 'The Lawmakers', who we assume are intelligent people, can often get it so wrong. After reading that, I think I know now.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
Time for me to chime in again. I know that first thoughts always go towards speed, but the speed that was occurring at the time might have been alright if the tyres weren't bald, brakes worked correctly and driver ability.
I am going to show you a few photos of only a handful of cars that I have examined were I don't remember speed to be a factor, but looking at the photos you would think it was.
If any of these photos offend anyone or you may know the vehicle, please let me know and I will remove them.
This photo, you can obviously see there is no visible damage and it was only traveling about 30kmph at impact. Ran over a car going the opposite way and one of those front wheels ended up sitting on the driver of the other car. The crane was not roadworthy and far from it and I think arrogance played a part. And the car it ran over was stopped as he had no where to go.
This next one was a small car with a lot of balls and he was road testing it after doing work on it. Gave it a gut full of juice and lost control. Got t-boned and passenger whom was sitting on a milk crate seriously injured.
This one below, the driver went to sleep and the poor innocent person is dead or seriously injured.
This one was in early hours of morning after finishing night shift and driving for hours. Was report of kangaroo and he tried to miss it ???
I thought rebuilding a VW would be cheap - Shit I was wrong, just don't let the wife know !!!!
Click here for my (slowy) modded 1961 Beetle build.Continued :
This one was maybe inexperience as he was an 'L' driver.
This is one that effected me for some time. This car was stopped in traffic due to burning off in the area and smoke over the road. Idiot in truck made bad decision and drove into smoke not being able to see where he was going and hit the car.
This one below lost control in the wet, maybe lack of experience or bad judgment.
This driver is one of the luckiest buggers around. Was running from police for what ever reason and he got out of this with minor injuries. From memory, wasn't wearing a seat belt and got pushed into the back seat area.
The point I am making and only about these few prangs is that speed is not always a factor in serious injury or death collisions. They may (and I say MAY) have been driving over the limit, but if you don't have the ability or are driving a defective car (bald tyres in wet) what chance do you have once you get behind the wheel. You have already reduced your chances of a safe journey.
I just wanted some to see what can happen and maybe see why some things happen and not jump to conclusions. I hope this also may make some people think about these incidents the next time they get behind the wheel. But of course I know all VW drivers are responsible drivers :-)
I post this up with the belief that all these collision are old and have been before the courts and will not have any affect on court results. Again, if anyone is troubled by any photos please let me know.
Cheers, Kev.
I thought rebuilding a VW would be cheap - Shit I was wrong, just don't let the wife know !!!!
Click here for my (slowy) modded 1961 Beetle build.I'm genuinely surprised by the opinion of the majority of people replying to this topic.
Do you honestly disagree with the following statement?
"The faster you are going the less time you have to react, therefore a crash is more likely if you go faster."
Do you honestly disagree with this statement as well?
"The faster you are going the more serious any crash will be."
1959 red & white Beetle
1975 Kombi camper
Purple Martin wrote:I'm genuinely surprised by the opinion of the majority of people replying to this topic.
Do you honestly disagree with the following statement?
"The faster you are going the less time you have to react, therefore a crash is more likely if you go faster."
Do you honestly disagree with this statement as well?
"The faster you are going the more serious any crash will be."
Do YOU honestly disagree with this statement as well?
"The more alert, experienced, and skillful you are as a driver, the less chance you have of HAVING a crash".
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
As said by Purple Martin:
Do you honestly disagree with the following statement?
"The faster you are going the less time you have to react, therefore a crash is more likely if you go faster."
Purple, I don't disagree with the first part of your statement but have you ever thought as to why you are re-acting to something in the first place. If I'm driving along speeding at 5kmph over limit and a car fails to give way and pulls out in front of me and I hit him, is it my frigging fault - NO.
Do you honestly disagree with this statement as well?
"The faster you are going the more serious any crash will be."
Again, why do you assume that because someone is driving fast (your words) that they are going to have a crash. As I have said, you could be saved because you are going faster.
Look, I said in my very first post that I am not condoning driving like a lunatic flat out everywhere. I'm just believe that the speeds could be raised a fair bit in a lot of streets, roads, highways or judged by the current conditions.
In my 25 years + of driving, I have only every had one accident that was my fault. Was doing about 30kmph in a 60 zone and my then girlfriend said to look at something and I did. Well you can guess the next part, I ran up someones arse - no speed involved.
I just want people not to stereotype that all speeding (as defined by the law - anything over the limit) is dangerous and going to kill you.
Because Speed Doesn't Kill 99.9% of the time (my estimate only). If speed kills, 99.9% of drivers would be dead. Purple, you are missing the point sorry.
Kev
I thought rebuilding a VW would be cheap - Shit I was wrong, just don't let the wife know !!!!
Click here for my (slowy) modded 1961 Beetle build.I'm with Kev.
Drivers are not trained in australia. we look at a few pictures, reverse park, don't screw up on our Ls and all of a sudden the govt assumes we can handle a 200hp car on a wet twisty road lined with trees with 2 beers in us...
Yeah sure, I don't think so.
I've said it before. Most of the people on this forum polish their cars more effectively than drive them. What are you gonna do to change that and make yourself a driver instead of an owner? 😉
I believe most people try to do the right thing and not break the law. It would seem, however, that a very large percentage of drivers speed at some stage (and often get booked for it), so it would appear that there is obviously big problems with the laws when so many law abiding citizens can't keep them.
From your ole' mate Jeff
I believe that we all should have to pass a difficult advanced driving test every time our licence is due for renewal.
P plate drivers should have to pass such a test to get out of L plates.
If anyone with a full licence fails the test they should have to go onto a full P plate, but call it an F plate.
We also need a new F plate which would have to be displayed by all drivers who have failed the advanced driving test. That would mean that we would be able to identify incompetent drivers and being warned, react accordingly.
Speed is not the problem unless it is really excessive.
The problem is driver competence or incompetence.
shaihulud wrote:Speed is not the problem unless it is really excessive.
The problem is driver competence or incompetence.
Well said.
Can I just add to the first of these quotes, I think in relation to the speed it also comes down to the current conditions. And I think under current conditions you should look at and include the road, the road surface and condition, the weather, the area you are in, tyres, drivers ability, the car and its ability, the way the vehicle is loaded, the car itself, your surrounding area - houses, pedestrians, time, other road users, the number of persons in the vehicle and anything else I haven't thought of.
One of the problems as I see it, is that years ago I drove in a street that was a 70 zone and now years later it dropped to a 50 zone and the street hasn't changed at all. The reason they drop the limit is just in case a child runs out onto the road and
may get hit by the car. I have seen to much death during my policing career and I never want to see any child or person run over or hurt in any way.
But when they drop the speed limit in only one street alone, this effects thousands of drivers in a year on this one street alone and all for the possibility that a child
may run out. In a nut shell, millions of drivers are victimised every day for the possibility that a child or person may be on the road. Whom are these roads made for.
Whilst I'm on a roll, road work speed limits are another thing that piss me off. Firstly, if people are working directly along side the path that you are taking I am all for slowing down. But when the road works are 20 feet off to the side of the road and the workers are behind a concrete barricade, why the F#@* do I need to slow down.
I have driven on many country roads in NSW were the tar road is not wide enough for 2 vehicles to pass. Yet the speed limit on this road in particular is still 100kmph. Why don't people crash on these roads, because they drive to the conditions and are watching for other cars.
Why is it ok to do 100kmph along a tree lined road, those trees are not going to move if I hit one. But if there was roadworks nearby, I would probably have do be doing 40-60kmph. Go figure.
Like the cops, the big bosses sitting up there in their offices should not make decisions for the coppers working on the street. Why, because they have no f#@*en idea what happens out on the street. And I think it is a similar thing with our roads.
Anyway, I am about to write to the Minister of roads and let him know what I think. Will it get me anywhere, probably not but at least I will have tried.
Kev
I thought rebuilding a VW would be cheap - Shit I was wrong, just don't let the wife know !!!!
Click here for my (slowy) modded 1961 Beetle build.We can all site particular areas / situations where the "rules" are just plain stupid, here's one for you that I told a person in authority about and till they went to see it personaly they all but called me a liar.
70 zone, so a fairly major road, changes into a 40 school zone with no school anywhere in sight, exit the school zone (still no school in sight) and less than 50 m further there's a weld mesh fence surrounding an infants school, proceed around the corner another 50 m and there's a school zone sign, now where's the logic in that, and while I am talking school zones I reckon that they are a good idea, little kids can be a bit unpredictable at times, but once they get to high school then they should be capable of using the roads sensibly, no school zones for high schools I reckon.
Someone in Darwin or the Teritory may be able to answer this one, last time I was up there I kinda recall that school zones were in force all day near schools, not just in the afternoon and morning, do I recall correctly?
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!
Today Tonight on channel 7 in Sydney, just presented how the UK have removed speed cameras and talked about a state in the US that has done the same. They also mentioned in Queensland that since the introduction of new speed cameras in April this year that fatal collisions have risen.
They also commented that they can not tell which fatal accidents may have been caused by mobile phones, arguments, speed or just inattentive drivers.
I rest my case.
Kevin
Sorry for all the ear bashing :-)
.
I thought rebuilding a VW would be cheap - Shit I was wrong, just don't let the wife know !!!!
Click here for my (slowy) modded 1961 Beetle build.I would propose the creation of a new "E" plate.
The "E" plate would denote an experienced driver who had passed the experienced (i.e. advanced) licence test. "E" plate drivers would be allowed leniency of 20 kph over the posted speed limit outside of built-up areas, subject to the judgement of the magistrate, i.e. in the majority of cases the magistrate would dismiss, purely on the basis of speeding (*not* for dangerous driving). "E" plate drivers might also have some other minor privileges, but would also have the obligation of driving in a manner which would inspire.
To qualify for an "E" plate, you have to pony up $1000 for the initial test and $250 every second year for re-testing, which is required to retain your "E" plate. This is not to make it a rich man's sport, but to pay for the significant costs involved in administering such a system of rigorous testing (wet skid pan, emergency braking, slalom, gravel road, braking in corners) etc. There are many fine details that would need to be sorted, but there are many fine minds on here who could contribute.
Driving with an "E" plate while not qualified for such would imply a hefty fine, say $1000.
Despite the effort and cost of obtaining an "E" plate, I think there would be an unmanageable queue for testing. Instead of crushing "hoons'" cars it is a positive step toward individuals taking greater personal responsibility for their actions and could even result in some positive outcomes for both disaffected drivers and desparate governments.
hth
Peter Hill
1975 Type 2 Double Cab
modulus.com.auhahaha sorry, but not too many people would be prepared to rest a case on a tv report, even from Today Tonight despite it being the highly reputable masterpeice of investigative journalism that it is. TT and its rival ACA dont write news stories, they write pieces that are designed to enrage viewers by triggering an already red raw nerve in their target demographic.
If you listen to the NRMA the road toll is mostly to do with the road conditions. They spent a fortune on a Newspoll to tell them so. Its a major issue for 84% of voters. They cant really say its because of crap drivers, because crap drivers pay them their money. Eden Monaro is likely to be decided on the roads issue! Dont really care about the environment or the economy or superannuation or any of those other things down there apparently.
I think it all should come down to judgement. An experienced driver will know his limits and how fast he should go.
That way he can focus on the road rather than the speed limit!
Driver training should be Mandatory in schools ,,, SIMPLE AS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!
& very "EARLY" in the primary school system too
this would basically eliminate the "Wank" factor,,, no one would feel the need to show-off at 17 years old,,, last year of school with school cert & sex & drugs & alcohol all being big factors to the "WAY" kids act ,,, it`s just not the time to start driving lessons... any wonder the insurance for under 25s is expensive yeah?
it all should be done way way early,, & every single kid should be involved
learning the basics of driving & learning those skills instinctively--> like walking & breathing ,,, as in you don`t need to think about your next action,,, it becomes "Natural"
Learning & experiencing the automotive & mechanical , repairs & maintenance etc, should also be part of the program,,, if people have a better understanding of what is actually happening with their car,,, the physics of it is all pretty damn easy,,, then everyone would "FEEL" their car more effectively & any mechainical issue with regards to wear & tear & breakages & wheel alignments & sloppy ball joints & steering problems could all be less of a cause to accidents also
this type of program would also encourage the "Boy-racers" to join a car club instead of showing-off on the road
most the other kids who are not interested in racing in car clubs, but have already learned from the program, wouldn`t encourage the idiots on the street, "BECAUSE" they all know where it should be done---> on the race track
there are soooo many benefits from creating a school based driver training program & yet the big 3--> Govt, schools & Insurance companies have no idea,,, & worse--> they don`t even want to know
what`s wrong with these people?????????????????????????
Mt Cooton driver training facility has recently started a course for schools , similar to what i have just described & is doing wonders... lets prey that more & more get involved & it turns it all around
Just imagine how cheap insurance would be for everyone without sooo many accidents
& how many lives would be saved simply because people would actually know how to drive more safely
Obviously there will still be accidents,,, there will always be accidents,,, that`s why they`re called accidents,,, but surely the numbers of accidents would be severely reduced ,,, & the severity of those accidents would "HAVE-TO" be less
isn`t it just simple common sense????
Q1 how does someone know their limit without first exceeding it?
Q2 does driving safely include blasting down a residential street in an uninsured racing special?
amazeer wrote:Q1 how does someone know their limit without first exceeding it?
Q2 does driving safely include blasting down a residential street in an uninsured racing special?
A1 You cannot know, however the place to find that limit is NOT on a public road, but in a controlled environment - such as a driver training centre.
A2 Absolutely not! Anyone who does that is an idiot.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
At first glance it’s easy to agree with the initial post.
However – as a former race car driver (Aust F2 Champion) and advanced and defensive driving instructor who has conducted over 1800 courses along with conducting police driver and pursuit training and a former paramedic I must disagree.
Firstly speed does influence the final impact – the higher the speed the greater the impact.
Most drivers are not trained at high speed response – so regardless of who instigated the collision the average driver (and even those who have had limited training) will not be able to successfully avoid a crash in a high speed emergency situation – lower the speed and the chances are one, or in the case of multiple vehicles, both drivers will be able to avoid the impact – or if impact is imminent – reduce the damage to both themselves and their vehicles.
Secondly – comparing driving in a controlled and regulated environment where all cars are going (most of the time) in the same direction as in motor racing to driving on the road is wrong.
Roads are thoroughfares through society – most, if not all, roads have pedestrians, other vehicles coming from all directions, distractions, intersections, lighting problems, adverse weather conditions, stop giveway and traffic signals, deposits on the road surface etc etc etc – none of which are flagged to the everyday motorist by a well placed flag marshal. The lower the speed at which all of these obstacles firstly encountered and then manoeuvred by the ordinary motorist the better the chance of avoidance of a crash.
I could go on – but I don’t want to sound like a prude.
Don’t get me wrong – going fast on a race track is the most exciting and exhilarating fun you can have – but advocating higher speeds on our roads is wrong – and it’s not until you experience the pain of losing a loved one through the stupid actions of a speeding driver (whether it be another driver or the actions of the one you lost) will you understand the futility of advocating high speeds in an completely uncontrolled environment like our roads.
As I said earlier – most drivers are not trained at high speed response – and those who have been properly would never risk their lives and those of their passengers by driving recklessly fast on a public road.
toyvan wrote:At first glance it’s easy to agree with the initial post.
However – as a former race car driver (Aust F2 Champion) and advanced and defensive driving instructor who has conducted over 1800 courses along with conducting police driver and pursuit training and a former paramedic I must disagree.
Firstly speed does influence the final impact – the higher the speed the greater the impact.
Most drivers are not trained at high speed response – so regardless of who instigated the collision the average driver (and even those who have had limited training) will not be able to successfully avoid a crash in a high speed emergency situation – lower the speed and the chances are one, or in the case of multiple vehicles, both drivers will be able to avoid the impact – or if impact is imminent – reduce the damage to both themselves and their vehicles.
Secondly – comparing driving in a controlled and regulated environment where all cars are going (most of the time) in the same direction as in motor racing to driving on the road is wrong.
Roads are thoroughfares through society – most, if not all, roads have pedestrians, other vehicles coming from all directions, distractions, intersections, lighting problems, adverse weather conditions, stop giveway and traffic signals, deposits on the road surface etc etc etc – none of which are flagged to the everyday motorist by a well placed flag marshal. The lower the speed at which all of these obstacles firstly encountered and then manoeuvred by the ordinary motorist the better the chance of avoidance of a crash.
I could go on – but I don’t want to sound like a prude.
Don’t get me wrong – going fast on a race track is the most exciting and exhilarating fun you can have – but advocating higher speeds on our roads is wrong – and it’s not until you experience the pain of losing a loved one through the stupid actions of a speeding driver (whether it be another driver or the actions of the one you lost) will you understand the futility of advocating high speeds in an completely uncontrolled environment like our roads.
As I said earlier – most drivers are not trained at high speed response – and those who have been properly would never risk their lives and those of their passengers by driving recklessly fast on a public road.
This is why I feel that Kev's post is so good, even if you don't agree. 'toyvan' has done a wonderful job of highlighting the main problems, and even though the message may not get through to everyone, it shows that at least some people are concerned.
👍I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
