dont compare octane with temperature. not the same thing.
And E85 has a lower octane rating than LPG ya know. So no big advances there in any case.
amazeer Bishop of Volkswagenism
3,029 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·
Caltex E85, can we use it?
68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --
11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
I don't really believe that....LUFTMEISTER wrote:The problem with ethanol based fuel is the food bowls of the world are being converted to produce it. It is only being used as a small percentage of total energy at the moment, but to produce enough to replace the worlds dependence on fossel fuel ,there would be no food produced on this planet! We are along way off replacing fossil fuel. If we are to maintain our current lifestyle and transport freedoms. How far are YOU & YOUR FAMILY prepared to walk to stay green is the real question. My2c
the US was making ethanol from sugar as it had excess of sugar..
ethanol can be made from many crops etc...
Holden is bringing out a Commodore that can officially use E85
First car in Australia...
You can get fuel/oil hose with teflon coating inside...
that should handle ethanol OK...
Drag cars etc use Methanol... must be similar problems with hoses..??
LEE
PS: I bought some good old BP unleaded without ethanol today it cost $1.30 a litre.. probably will be all gone by the end of the year...?? LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 ·
Thats a major misconception with the hoses. Ethanol wont do anything to most hoses, but regular fuel can.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds
2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
For air-cooled VWs that you drive every day, forget about E10 and E85 or whatever. Also forget about driving around trying to find the last dregs of un-ethanol 91, it's a waste of time.
Just go to your local servo and buy 95 RON Premium. Just pay the few cents extra and be happy. Use a Woolies or Coles discount docket and you save a bit more. I got some Caltex 95 this morning for $1.25.
Lee the US makes ethanol from corn, not sugar. The US get their domestic sugar from beets, as they are not hot or wet enough to grow sugar cane (a tropical crop). You are thinking of Brazil. Methanol has similar issues to ethanol, with the additional problem that it is poisonous.
Just go to your local servo and buy 95 RON Premium. Just pay the few cents extra and be happy. Use a Woolies or Coles discount docket and you save a bit more. I got some Caltex 95 this morning for $1.25.
Lee the US makes ethanol from corn, not sugar. The US get their domestic sugar from beets, as they are not hot or wet enough to grow sugar cane (a tropical crop). You are thinking of Brazil. Methanol has similar issues to ethanol, with the additional problem that it is poisonous.
barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem
9,476 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·
ok on the food side of it, having just seen the flow through effects of the us govt offering a subsidy for those that grew corn for fuel.
we had grain and hop shortages in the last 3 years due to the fact that the farmers could grow corn and it did have to be of the same quality as the previous crops ie grain, hops or other food sources and get paid by both the govt and fuel companies.
it was estimated that we lost about 40% of the grain fields and at least 50% of the hop fields in the us to this stupid idea.
i dont believe that taking food off tables to produce fuel is a way ahead. if it was done with waste products like the left overs from sugar production and other industries fine.
we had grain and hop shortages in the last 3 years due to the fact that the farmers could grow corn and it did have to be of the same quality as the previous crops ie grain, hops or other food sources and get paid by both the govt and fuel companies.
it was estimated that we lost about 40% of the grain fields and at least 50% of the hop fields in the us to this stupid idea.
i dont believe that taking food off tables to produce fuel is a way ahead. if it was done with waste products like the left overs from sugar production and other industries fine.
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me
the chaos project - click me
volumex Officially Full-On Dubber
389 posts · joined Jul 2005 ·
We have plenty of sugar cane farmers walking off their farms in NQ, so anything to encourage them to stay has to be a good thing. (I'll not even touch the subject of farmer suicides, but that is another excellent reason to encourage ethanol.)
Australia's balance of payments is being buggered by the huge amount of oil we need to import, by encouraging the use of ethanol we keep more money and jobs in regional Australia.
Ethanol isn't the magic bullet, but it is a step in the right direction.
Although I won't run it in my Beetles, I plan to run E85 in my Pug 206GTI.
Australia's balance of payments is being buggered by the huge amount of oil we need to import, by encouraging the use of ethanol we keep more money and jobs in regional Australia.
Ethanol isn't the magic bullet, but it is a step in the right direction.
Although I won't run it in my Beetles, I plan to run E85 in my Pug 206GTI.
bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6
6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·
Any developments of 100% ethanol compatible engines in development?
I mean... if they have 85% ethanol fuels (with only 15% petrol)... surely that would be the next step again.
It seems to be like a silent slow merge.... But as stated in the theory workings of TRIZ as a wise russian once said... there is a 'Tendency for human beings to resist change".. - Principle of Psychological Inertia.
It looks to me that its going to head that way, and why the heck not 🙂, we're powerless as individuals and can only accept it.
I mean... if they have 85% ethanol fuels (with only 15% petrol)... surely that would be the next step again.
It seems to be like a silent slow merge.... But as stated in the theory workings of TRIZ as a wise russian once said... there is a 'Tendency for human beings to resist change".. - Principle of Psychological Inertia.
It looks to me that its going to head that way, and why the heck not 🙂, we're powerless as individuals and can only accept it.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds
2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Of course there are! Cars made specifically for the Brazilian market that can run on up to E100 (actually 96% ethanol and 4% water) have been available since the late 1970s. However Brazil's fuel can vary anywhere from E15 to E100 and anything in between. So Volkswagen was the first maker to produce a car that can automatically run on ANY blend of petrol and ethanol - the 2003 Gol 1.6 Total Flex. Early versions needed a small auxiliary petrol tank for cold starts, but even that has been eliminated in the newer models.
Ethanol has a great potential as an Australian alternative in future, if we do it properly. VW already has the technology for new cars and it would be a simple matter to make E10-E100 Total Flex cars for any market as required, including here. You just have to remember that existing cars, especially old Volkswagens, can't use it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
Ethanol has a great potential as an Australian alternative in future, if we do it properly. VW already has the technology for new cars and it would be a simple matter to make E10-E100 Total Flex cars for any market as required, including here. You just have to remember that existing cars, especially old Volkswagens, can't use it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 ·
Why the helll not! 😂 More RON, More boost, more power.
who cares about economy when we are talking about fuel that drag cars use 😁
who cares about economy when we are talking about fuel that drag cars use 😁
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds
2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
I'm talking about unmodified stockers - they can't use ethanol.
If you want to especially modify your road or race car, then that's a different story.
If you want to especially modify your road or race car, then that's a different story.
bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6
6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·
So.... all in all...
What does one need to do to convert their ol' dub to enthanol savvy superiority over all the other classics?
Just plastic lined tank (resin coatin on stock?), new ethanol friendly fuel lines and pump, corrosive resistant componentry in carbs and heads? + of course the 'tune up"? is that all thats really required?
You know... someone could start a business for these type of conversions, If thats all thats involved then schweet. Be nice to have some kind of dial/gauge or measurement of the tuning parameters of the carb such that if u wanted to 'revert' back to fuel you just get a ruler or follow a marking or recording of the amount of adustment to put on ur carb mixture screws. And a set of jets appropriate to each that u could just swap and go.
I spose ignition advance curves would be different, but then u might as well go efi if u wanna get that 'intrinsique'
What does one need to do to convert their ol' dub to enthanol savvy superiority over all the other classics?
Just plastic lined tank (resin coatin on stock?), new ethanol friendly fuel lines and pump, corrosive resistant componentry in carbs and heads? + of course the 'tune up"? is that all thats really required?
You know... someone could start a business for these type of conversions, If thats all thats involved then schweet. Be nice to have some kind of dial/gauge or measurement of the tuning parameters of the carb such that if u wanted to 'revert' back to fuel you just get a ruler or follow a marking or recording of the amount of adustment to put on ur carb mixture screws. And a set of jets appropriate to each that u could just swap and go.
I spose ignition advance curves would be different, but then u might as well go efi if u wanna get that 'intrinsique'
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds
2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
To use E10 - don't bother. No advantage to converting and you'll never get back the expense of doing so.
E85 - E100 - as you say. You have to allow for both the corrosive effects of almost straight alcohol, and that of the 4% or more water that the mixture always contains. Plastic or stainless tank (plastic-coated steel perhaps); stainless fixed lines, alcohol-compatible flex lines; alcohol-compatible pump. Whether you use fuel injection or carbs, you'll need to burn around 50% more fuel per volume of air than petrol as ethanol has less energy per volume than petrol. But to get to most from E85-E100, you need to bump the compression ratio up, to perhaps 12 to 1 or more to regain the same thermal efficiency. You'll also need a fuel heater, or even a small auxiliary petrol tank and crossover, for cold weather starts as ethanol has a lower vapour pressure than petrol. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
It's no quick adjust and I would reckon a conversion would be similar in scope and price to an LPG conversion. For a normal street VW I can't see how you could justify the cost - yes ethanol is cheaper but you'll burn more of it, don't forget. But if you're going racing, it might be worth considering.
E85 - E100 - as you say. You have to allow for both the corrosive effects of almost straight alcohol, and that of the 4% or more water that the mixture always contains. Plastic or stainless tank (plastic-coated steel perhaps); stainless fixed lines, alcohol-compatible flex lines; alcohol-compatible pump. Whether you use fuel injection or carbs, you'll need to burn around 50% more fuel per volume of air than petrol as ethanol has less energy per volume than petrol. But to get to most from E85-E100, you need to bump the compression ratio up, to perhaps 12 to 1 or more to regain the same thermal efficiency. You'll also need a fuel heater, or even a small auxiliary petrol tank and crossover, for cold weather starts as ethanol has a lower vapour pressure than petrol. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
It's no quick adjust and I would reckon a conversion would be similar in scope and price to an LPG conversion. For a normal street VW I can't see how you could justify the cost - yes ethanol is cheaper but you'll burn more of it, don't forget. But if you're going racing, it might be worth considering.
vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 ·
I ran my commy for 30,000k on e10. took the tank out as the pump needed replacing (was like that since i had the car so don't blame the e10) The tank was shiny inside with not a trace of anything? except the odd bit of small rocks.
Its a steel tank btw. And i all so removed the fuel lines while I was at it and they seemed ok. Did my fuel rail on the alternator terminal last year, so as I replaced it, I just reused the "O" rings as they were also spot on.
They use ethanol to preserve flesh and other various items for a reason 👍.
Its a steel tank btw. And i all so removed the fuel lines while I was at it and they seemed ok. Did my fuel rail on the alternator terminal last year, so as I replaced it, I just reused the "O" rings as they were also spot on.
They use ethanol to preserve flesh and other various items for a reason 👍.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds
2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Yes the FCAI's website says that many modern fuel-injected cars can run fine on E10. I've tried in my Mk3 Golf but it runs better on normal 95 petrol. But I won't be using it in my Kombi.
They certainly use ethanol for cleaning and disinfecting - those cool wipes you get before a needle are ethanol. But for preserving flesh (embalming fluid) - are you thinking of formalin, a mixture of formaldehyde, methanol and water?
They certainly use ethanol for cleaning and disinfecting - those cool wipes you get before a needle are ethanol. But for preserving flesh (embalming fluid) - are you thinking of formalin, a mixture of formaldehyde, methanol and water?
bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6
6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·
mmmm corned beef....
with a scotch on the rocks...
Now thats preserving a darn good meal with a dash of ethanol 😂
with a scotch on the rocks...
Now thats preserving a darn good meal with a dash of ethanol 😂
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6
6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 ·
Update:
Today's practical at uni involved using simulation software called AVL BOOST, which is a combustion cycle piston engine simulation package used in industry and its pretty accurate depending on how well you inform the software about the detailed parameters of the engine.
We were simulating ethanol blended and ethanol fumigation methods in diesel engines so observe the general findings which simply backed up general industry knowledge.
- Ethanol runs hotter (I was wrong). Because it is a simpler molecule, it breaks down easier releasing energy quicker and hence hotter. e5 and e10 had hardly a difference between each other whilst E85 did. Ignition advance curves and cooling system changes can be adjusted to bring down this temperature.
- Ethanol doesn't necessary decrease fuel mileage! It depends what you require from the engine. IN ESSENCE, you need more litreage of ethanol blended fuel to match the same power output as 100% fuel, yes. But km/ltr depends on power demand from the vehicle.
- Ethanol's main benefits are definitely in the green/emissions field. It is definitely a cleaner fuel. During the experimentation we saw excellent decreases in toxic CO and HC emissions outputs. However, at the cost of more NOx emissions. The hotter running temperatures would be to blame for this, but it can be brought back down by making corrections to bring down the cylinder temperatures to bring the NOx values back down.
Alot of PHD research is going into it, particularly in diesel-ethanol blends. The yanks already have diesanol. We were working in the engine dynometer labs playing with a turboed 6cyl diesel Cummins engine connected to a 'water brake' type dynometer. couple more weeks we will be analysing some bomb old ford diesel from the 70's :P, fun fun!
Today's practical at uni involved using simulation software called AVL BOOST, which is a combustion cycle piston engine simulation package used in industry and its pretty accurate depending on how well you inform the software about the detailed parameters of the engine.
We were simulating ethanol blended and ethanol fumigation methods in diesel engines so observe the general findings which simply backed up general industry knowledge.
- Ethanol runs hotter (I was wrong). Because it is a simpler molecule, it breaks down easier releasing energy quicker and hence hotter. e5 and e10 had hardly a difference between each other whilst E85 did. Ignition advance curves and cooling system changes can be adjusted to bring down this temperature.
- Ethanol doesn't necessary decrease fuel mileage! It depends what you require from the engine. IN ESSENCE, you need more litreage of ethanol blended fuel to match the same power output as 100% fuel, yes. But km/ltr depends on power demand from the vehicle.
- Ethanol's main benefits are definitely in the green/emissions field. It is definitely a cleaner fuel. During the experimentation we saw excellent decreases in toxic CO and HC emissions outputs. However, at the cost of more NOx emissions. The hotter running temperatures would be to blame for this, but it can be brought back down by making corrections to bring down the cylinder temperatures to bring the NOx values back down.
Alot of PHD research is going into it, particularly in diesel-ethanol blends. The yanks already have diesanol. We were working in the engine dynometer labs playing with a turboed 6cyl diesel Cummins engine connected to a 'water brake' type dynometer. couple more weeks we will be analysing some bomb old ford diesel from the 70's :P, fun fun!
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 👍
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta!
annosL Officially Full-On Dubber
378 posts · joined Dec 2008 ·
Interesting discussion, I have a few oddball questions from Sandgroper point of view (has been known to have been parochial!) There doesn't seem to be much discussion in W.A. about Ethanol in fuel, in fact I don,t know anyone who mentions it, our fuel is as it has always has been and I just run my bug on Premium and it's fine.
One question is: does Queensland or N.S.W. for that matter look to benefit at all from production of Ethanol, say from Sugar Cane? I might be ignorant on this so please forgive.
If that is so what does anyone think about people like Bob Katter mentioning Ethanol as an election issue, especially when his decision may affect the election outcome? I am not keen on a National Government being decided on a local state issue. Mind you, just re-reading what I have just said I guess the mining tax could be a similar thing, something which has been a huge topic over here. If Ethanol being put in our fuel will be applied Nationwide is there a good, positive side to it to make it worthwhile?
One question is: does Queensland or N.S.W. for that matter look to benefit at all from production of Ethanol, say from Sugar Cane? I might be ignorant on this so please forgive.
If that is so what does anyone think about people like Bob Katter mentioning Ethanol as an election issue, especially when his decision may affect the election outcome? I am not keen on a National Government being decided on a local state issue. Mind you, just re-reading what I have just said I guess the mining tax could be a similar thing, something which has been a huge topic over here. If Ethanol being put in our fuel will be applied Nationwide is there a good, positive side to it to make it worthwhile?
Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds
2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Sugar cane is the best source of ethanol, as it has a higher sucrose content than corn (which the US uses). That's why it's been such a success in Brazil. Australia has the potential to use sugar crops for large-scale ethanol production, but sugar cane only grows in the tropical north. Hence Bob Katter's interest - he can see big $$ in it in his area in future. There is sugar cane grown in NSW, from around Coffs harbour up, but the vast majority is in Queensland - it's hotter and wetter, and more like Brazil.
At the moment Australia's largest producer of ethanol is the Manildra group. Their plant is located in Nowra. It uses industrial grade wheat flour to make ethanol. It musrt be ok on a cost and supply basis now, but if ethanol really ramps up and they need to increase production x20, I don't know how sustainable that would be - flour comes from wheat of course.
http://www.manildra.com.au/our_products/article/ethanol/
At the moment Australia's largest producer of ethanol is the Manildra group. Their plant is located in Nowra. It uses industrial grade wheat flour to make ethanol. It musrt be ok on a cost and supply basis now, but if ethanol really ramps up and they need to increase production x20, I don't know how sustainable that would be - flour comes from wheat of course.
http://www.manildra.com.au/our_products/article/ethanol/
annosL Officially Full-On Dubber
378 posts · joined Dec 2008 ·
Thanks Phil, it's a bit clearer to me, the question remains whether putting Ethanol in is a huge gain or at least has an advantage over petrol or is it a prop for the sugar cane industry? Seems to be a lot of questions need to be addressed before this is used nationally, basically a good thing or not❓
annosL Officially Full-On Dubber
378 posts · joined Dec 2008 ·
Just checked out Manildra, very educational for me, thanks for the link, lot of information there
68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --
11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Last time I looked.... a while back...annosL wrote:There doesn't seem to be much discussion in W.A. about Ethanol in fuel, in fact I don,t know anyone who mentions it, our fuel is as it has always has been and I just run my bug on Premium and it's fine.
If Ethanol being put in our fuel will be applied Nationwide is there a good, positive side to it to make it worthwhile?
Ethanol was illegal to add to fuel.... in Western Australia...
whether this has changed....???
LEE
I won't use it in My beetle... loses too much power??
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
annosL Officially Full-On Dubber
378 posts · joined Dec 2008 ·
I don't know about the illegality of it here, haven't seen it at the pumps,only bio-diesel. If sugar can was grown in the Kimberley then it would soon become legal!
Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds
2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
Lee, for the 100th time, E10 ethanol fuel is not compatible with air-cooled VWs.
You can only use E10 in fuel-injected VWs made after 1986. Just buy normal 95 petrol for your Beetle and be happy.
You can only use E10 in fuel-injected VWs made after 1986. Just buy normal 95 petrol for your Beetle and be happy.
vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 ·
Don't you guys know anything about thermodynamics??! its 3.4% more worst case consumption for E10 and up to 28.9% more for E85.1500S wrote:Even GMH stated that you would have to get used to filling up more regular as the engines will use more much more volume of the E85 stuff. Remember, as it stands with E10, the engine will use around 10% more so where's the actual savings????
DH
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE