Stanley's car....1 1/4" Tranny raise 28Jun14

Stanley · 2008-05-05T09:37:43+00:00

Thought this might be better here than in members rides. Since the decommissioning of my white '70 beetle that I used to drive/race with the turbo, this is what now has all my attention. Although I’m not going to post it as a build up, it's passed the point of no return so I’ll just post the odd progress pic. It's nothing that hasn't been done before. It's a '60 Aussie built beetle and plans are to make it for the track only and as such has had all non essential stuff removed including all the window mechanisms and side glass which is now lexan. It will still be built under the TAT scope but I will spend money where it is needed particularly in making it safe. I have so far replaced the MC all the wheel cylinders, new brake shoes all drums machined amd all new wheel bearings. New g'box is in progress with Dangerous Dave and I will mount the old 100 ci turbo to it. Colour scheme at this stage will be satin black with silver flashes to match the aluminium panels at this stage. This what it started as a couple of months ago. May look familiar to some. I think I may have posted some pics earlier. Stripped and ready for the games to begin. Upgraded to a duel circuit MC. Have run a new line from front to rear. Front g'box mount was broken so decided after some advice, to fab an intermediate mount. Thanks Dave. Also now has a removeable apron and have done away with the wings between firewall and inner guard. Couple of pics of the new dash. Inside is plain and simple in satin black and aluminium rear panels and door cards. These are the wheels I recently purcahesed. May also look familiar to some.

humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 11 Oct 2010, 6:50 pm

#807068

Stanley wrote:.... AF meter showed it was not lean under boost....

How do you know for sure you are not lean at any point?.... Are you running a wideband data logger of some sort?....

FUCH your early!

http://www.noh2o.org/

Boostn Wolfsburg Wizard

657 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 11 Oct 2010, 7:37 pm

#807079

Hey Stanley,
The tune up might be fine?
You need a piston with holes under the oil ring not a slot. The slots will always break.
I think that the cheapest way to solve this problem is to get some 94s and up it to a 1915.
I don't see the big deal in doing the 1600cc thing. The 1915 will run 11's with that holley and be VERY reliable.

You could always offset grind the crank to de-stroke it if it's that important to you.
But that's just crazy!

VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com

Speed and Style

coletrickle Wolfsburg Wizard

661 posts · joined Apr 2009 · 11 Oct 2010, 8:06 pm

#807086

Hey Stanley just my 2 cents,but I recon you could probally use a new set of engine studs and nuts.yours must be nearly worn out!

essex Officially Full-On Dubber

352 posts · joined Dec 2008 · 11 Oct 2010, 8:21 pm

#807093

Geez, hope I didnt jinx you in the pm I sent!

Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 · 12 Oct 2010, 7:26 am

#807149

How do you know for sure you are not lean at any point?.... Are you running a wideband data logger of some sort?...

I don't Simon. The couple of glances I took at the AF gauge going across the line showed between 10 and 11. But your're right it could be lean, but shows no signs (other than piston damage) Can't log with my wideband unless you carry a laptop in the car.

Hey Stanley, The tune up might be fine? You need a piston with holes under the oil ring not a slot. The slots will always break.I think that the cheapest way to solve this problem is to get some 94s and up it to a 1915. I don't see the big deal in doing the 1600cc thing. The 1915 will run 11's with that holley and be VERY reliable.

After having a good look at the piston last night your're right Nick, they are doomed to fail at the slots. And I know I could build a 1915 and have it reliable but i'm committed to seeing the 1600 through at the moment. I get a kick out of a 1600 beating larger engines, and yes a turbo may be cheating, but it's a performance adder just like NOS (topical). Might be on the trail of some cheap SR20 pistons too. Thanks for your input Nick.

Hey Stanley just my 2 cents,but I recon you could probally use a new set of engine studs and nuts.yours must be nearly worn out!

Who says I have studs and nuts. I have an set up like bonnet pins now. My wife thinks I do it on purpose to have an excuse to be in the shed.

Geez, hope I didnt jinx you in the pm I sent!

Nah all good. Best its ever run and with the least amount of damage.

BeetleJuice Officially Full-On Dubber

350 posts · joined Sep 2006 · 12 Oct 2010, 9:42 am

#807172

After having a good look at the piston last night your're right Nick, they are doomed to fail at the slots. And I know I could build a 1915 and have it reliable but i'm committed to seeing the 1600 through at the moment. I get a kick out of a 1600 beating larger engines, and yes a turbo may be cheating, but it's a performance adder just like NOS (topical). Might be on the trail of some cheap SR20 pistons too. Thanks for your input Nick.

It's pretty cool what you are doing with a 1600!

FringeDweller

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 12 Oct 2010, 11:28 am

#807187

Stay with the 1640........just get your tune sorted.

Remember increasing your boost is the same as increasing the CR ratio...so just make sure your fuel is up to it. No point trying to tune the carb etc if you are already beyond what the fuel can handle 👍

Boostn Wolfsburg Wizard

657 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 12 Oct 2010, 8:15 pm

#807270

off set grind the crank to de-stroke it and use holden rods.
64mm stroke X 90.5mm pistons =1646cc
64mm stroke X 92mm pistons =1701cc

more rpm due to the rod to stroke ratio.

might work out cheaper?

VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com

Speed and Style

humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 12 Oct 2010, 11:04 pm

#807300

Boostn wrote:off set grind the crank to de-stroke it and use holden rods.
64mm stroke X 90.5mm pistons =1646cc
64mm stroke X 92mm pistons =1701cc

more rpm due to the rod to stroke ratio.

might work out cheaper?

Nutter!.... Where do you get these ideas Nick?.... Way outside the box I'm sure! 😎

FUCH your early!

http://www.noh2o.org/

Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 · 13 Oct 2010, 7:49 am

#807328

For anyone interested and who hasn't seen it already have a look at this thread. Johannes has done a lot of development on "mouse motors" and is getting 188.7hp @ 7670rpm from a NA 1603cc using a lot of stock parts. Read the thread for the thoughts behind what he does. It's a (long) great read. And he certainly doesn't mind sharing his info.

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,3257.0.html

Thanks again for the tips Nick. As Simon says (sorry) you certainly think outside the square. Also found some new 87mm forged SR20 pistons with rings for $600. I just need to get hold of a piston to compare it to a volksy piston to look at deck height and CR. You'll notice Johannes uses 86mm JE pstons.

Also 1641cc = 100ci......🤓

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 13 Oct 2010, 12:26 pm

#807362

Stanley, 195hp @ 7700rpm. Here is the dyno vid...

http://www.youtube.com/user/VWBULLI#p/u/7/9868ihgGVk8

Impressive stuff. All he has done is apply F1 style lightening techniques to all the internal components, specifically the pistons, then open the heads right up. I've emailed him about this motor too. He reckons a counterweighted crank (this one is factory unweighted) would make it a great rally/circuit motor. So it's possible.

@Nick; which holden rods?

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 13 Oct 2010, 1:39 pm

#807368

Kinda funny really, a certain engine builder has been an advocate for short stroke (big bore) motors for decades and everybody seem to disagree with his theory.......how the tide turns 👍😂😂

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 13 Oct 2010, 1:51 pm

#807373

I guess it all comes down to volumetric efficiency.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 · 13 Oct 2010, 2:52 pm

#807381

Craig Torrens wrote:Kinda funny really, a certain engine builder has been an advocate for short stroke (big bore) motors for decades and everybody seem to disagree with his theory.......how the tide turns 👍😂😂

Personally I prefer a long stroke in a small bore, nothing worse than excessive side clearance from a bore that's been honed a few too many times. Although if you only have a short stroke I suppose you have to make do with what you've got.

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 13 Oct 2010, 3:55 pm

#807383

😂😂

hypo-vw Australias 1st 10sec street beetle (Jan 2007) 10.49secs@132m

2,151 posts · joined May 2004 · 13 Oct 2010, 5:12 pm

#807394

pete wood wrote:which holden rods?

I have done this conversion myself with great success back in the mid 1980's . I used holden red motor 6cyl conrods , but starfire 4 or blue motor 6cyl rods are much stronger .
I also stroked a standard 1600 crank to 75mm using the same rods and 94mm pistons and it had great torque and revved really quick due to the light conrod weight .

BTW I was watching Frankenstein run at Warwick and was very impressed with your progress...well done

Team

FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
FASTEST SPEED @ WARWICK 2011
FASTEST ET & SPEED WSID 2012
PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)

Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 · 13 Oct 2010, 6:05 pm

#807398

hypo-vw wrote:BTW I was watching Frankenstein run at Warwick and was very impressed with your progress...well done

Thanks Wayne...appreciate the encouragement. I'd like to think by Warwick next year i'll have the choice of turbo or Super charger.

Also the idea of a big bore and short stroke would help my 60 foot times. Until boost comes on it's still a mild 1641.

Good stuff Pete....sounds awsome

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 · 13 Oct 2010, 6:49 pm

#807410

I can't see how a shorter stroke would have any advantage for 60ft's. If anything I'd imagine a longer stroke would have an advantage with torque, its a longer lever at the end of the day. I really cant see the point in sticking with the 1640 if decent pistons are going to run the same amount as going up to 94's. Just imagine all that extra capacity to spool up a bigger turbo!! Just tell us all its a 1640 and keep a sheet over the engine in the pits😀😀

BeetleBug Casual Dubber

22 posts · joined Feb 2010 · 13 Oct 2010, 9:04 pm

#807452

Interesting thread. IS E85 easily available down under?

Here is a 1641ccm street engine for you;

- Original crank, not counterweighted
- CB h rods 5,5"
- Mahle 87mm pistons and cylinders
- Single relief engine case
- Fk-89 camshaft
- lube a lobe lifters
- cromolly pushrods
- scat 1,4:1 rockers
- Orginal heads with orginal valves 35/32,5mm. Ported intakes and exhaust.

- 1 5/8 exhaust
- HX35 turbo
- 1600cc injectors E85
- Autronic SM4 ECU with MSD 8245 coils
- air/air intercooler

It dynoed 354hp at 2 bar but blew a head at the SCC event (10.18 ET). He exchanged the head to a original, un-ported one which he use in the movie above and took the car to the JPM dyno day last weekend. With one ported head and one un-ported head he dyno`d 391hp at 2.2 bar. Not bad at all from a 1641ccm budget engine.

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fish26 Fahrvergnugen

903 posts · joined Jul 2007 · 13 Oct 2010, 9:37 pm

#807465

Wow thats one quick bug, here's another

I applaud you Stanley with sticking to the 1640 for as long as you have, I don't think people realize that its a lot more difficult building a fast reliable mouse motor than a big bore 2L+ beast.

Johannes from JPMotorsport has proved that it can be done but unfortunately at a high cost with a lot of rotating mass cutting, custom machining, custom pistons, light valve train, hand ported heads, creative friction coating and all combined with stock parts.
Speaking to him a few months ago regarding a similar engine to yours, he recommended I use the 88mm thick wall "machine in" pistons to keep the cost down with either stock or counter weighed balanced crank and still keeping under the 1700, kinda old school 1678 with boost, I have since been thinking about building a real mini mouse turbo 1300 twin port.

He is also a big fan of the 1915 combo because its efficiency of build and performance....but then it becomes more of a rat.

bitten by the bug..........several times

hypo-vw Australias 1st 10sec street beetle (Jan 2007) 10.49secs@132m

2,151 posts · joined May 2004 · 14 Oct 2010, 7:48 am

#807514

fish26 wrote:I applaud you Stanley with sticking to the 1640.

I would have to agree with you . Stick with the 1640 project.... it is a lot more satisfying getting big horsepower from smaller engines .
In 1993 I attended the VW nationals drags with my rotary powered beetle , my then apprentice Trent was driving a dark blue street beetle (which later became the WPVW sports sedan ) with a 1640 engine I had prepared . The engine was dynoed at 101bhp @ the wheels 7800rpm NA on 48IDF webbers .
The 1640 was nearly as quick as the rotary , quicker than a Hellbug built 2.2 injected bug and quicker than a 1600 turbo bug also running at that event .
Stick with it Stanley...more horsepower and reliability to come mate .

Team

FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
FASTEST SPEED @ WARWICK 2011
FASTEST ET & SPEED WSID 2012
PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 · 15 Oct 2010, 6:39 am

#807628

those numbers are a bit hard to believe 😵‍💫

101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?

hypo-vw Australias 1st 10sec street beetle (Jan 2007) 10.49secs@132m

2,151 posts · joined May 2004 · 15 Oct 2010, 7:20 am

#807633

johny rotten wrote:those numbers are a bit hard to believe 😵‍💫

101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?

was running cr at the time of 12.8 and avgas fuel , the same engine now is running a cr of 11.4 and running 98 ulp on the speedway turning to 7800rpm constantly and put out 93bhp @ the wheels with 40idf webbers...
whats so hard to believe ?😂

Team

FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
FASTEST SPEED @ WARWICK 2011
FASTEST ET & SPEED WSID 2012
PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)

Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 · 15 Oct 2010, 7:35 am

#807636

BeetleBug wrote:Interesting thread. IS E85 easily available down under?

Here is a 1641ccm street engine for you;

- Mahle 87mm pistons and cylinders

I guess that goes someway in answering my concerns about 87mm Mahle pistons. Thanks BB for taking time out from the mouse motor thread to pop in.

They are good numbers Wayne and again what's not believeable about it...😂

Almost makes me think i'm cheating with the turbo....🙅

Thanks for everyone's input and I welcome any discussion or advice.

Cheers

hypo-vw Australias 1st 10sec street beetle (Jan 2007) 10.49secs@132m

2,151 posts · joined May 2004 · 15 Oct 2010, 7:51 am

#807643

in my 1640 engine , I am using a scat 69 forged crank , 5.4 H-beam rods , 87 Mahle forged pistons , 42x38 heads .
when it was dynoed at 101bhp , the engine was running a Bernie Bergmann full-circle counterweighted crank with Pauter pro-series aluminum rods ( which are still sitting on the engine bench waiting to be fitted to a 1916cc turbo buggy) I have had great success with the mahle 87mm forged pistons....in my opinion you should go this way and stay with the 1640....

Team

FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
FASTEST SPEED @ WARWICK 2011
FASTEST ET & SPEED WSID 2012
PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 · 15 Oct 2010, 8:18 am

#807648

johny rotten wrote:those numbers are a bit hard to believe 😵‍💫

101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?

why? Hellbugged's (Daimo) 1776 cracked 100rwhp at the dyno day last year. A 1640 isn't that much smaller.

"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 · 15 Oct 2010, 8:31 am

#807652

Stanley wrote:Almost makes me think i'm cheating with the turbo....🙅

Cheers

Yep, going by the Lounge Mouse Motor thread, you are cheating Stanley.

I'm liking what I see here, I've got a few engine bits around that may soon be enough to challenge Waynes 100rwhp.......Shame I never dynoed the custom 1300 85.5 x 56 twinport race engine I built for the '98 Targa, not in the running I admit as it was very mild cr but certainly in the comp....🙂

ps don't worry about Johnny Nice Fella....he doesn't like stuff that others do.

Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 · 15 Oct 2010, 10:31 am

#807666

Turbo's are not cheating.... Making do with an inefficient engine is just plan stupid!.... NA or otherwise.... Do what you must to make the power and enjoy the ride.... Naysayers can go jump.

FUCH your early!

http://www.noh2o.org/

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 · 15 Oct 2010, 1:30 pm

#807704

N/A , Turbo, blown or gas....... or what ever combination of all that you can come up with, it's all good to me. I appreciate any form, even stock, when an engine is built right and does what it's intended for, I'm happy. 🙂

Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 · 15 Oct 2010, 1:42 pm

#807709

johny rotten wrote:those numbers are a bit hard to believe 😵‍💫

101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?

1640cc producing 101hp = 1916cc producing 117hp
or = 2332cc producing 143hp
1776cc producing 100hp = 1916cc producing 107hp
or = 2332 producing 131hp

So why would it be hard to believe a 1640 producing 101hp, when clearly there are other combo's on this forum producing a lot more HP/cc ?

What I find hard to believe would be how you can get CR 12.8:1 with a 1640............how did you achieve that Wayne ? Dome top pistons ?