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Stanley's car....1 1/4" Tranny raise 28Jun14

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Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#807710
hypo-vw wrote:I have had great success with the mahle 87mm forged pistons....in my opinion you should go this way and stay with the 1640....
Are they forged based on a seller sayng there are no forged 87mm Mahle pistons and if they are (not doubting you by the way Wayne) where can I get some?

cheers

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807715
Craig Torrens wrote:So why would it be hard to believe a 1640 producing 101hp, when clearly there are other combo's on this forum producing a lot more HP/cc ?
There are combo's in the Mouse Motor thread making 130hp/liter, and backed up by time slips. 👍 Now that is definately something to aim for.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion

8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·

#807716
yep, agree 👍


fish26 Fahrvergnugen

903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·

#807724
humpty wrote:Turbo's are not cheating.... Making do with an inefficient engine is just plan stupid!.... NA or otherwise.... Do what you must to make the power and enjoy the ride.... Naysayers can go jump.
LOL too true, having fun is not cheating, show me one guy that doesn't like a bigger suck, bang, blow 😊
bitten by the bug..........several times

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807740
Speaking of bigger suck bang blow

Check out this, 1915 making 248 @ 9700



Suck on that !!! Has to be Nitro for sure 😂😂😂.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

koolkarmakombi enkarmarising

2,078 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·

#807754
matberry wrote:
Stanley wrote:Almost makes me think i'm cheating with the turbo....🙅

Cheers
Yep, going by the Lounge Mouse Motor thread, you are cheating Stanley.

I'm liking what I see here, I've got a few engine bits around that may soon be enough to challenge Waynes 100rwhp.......Shame I never dynoed the custom 1300 85.5 x 56 twinport race engine I built for the '98 Targa, not in the running I admit as it was very mild cr but certainly in the comp....🙂

ps don't worry about Johnny Nice Fella....he doesn't like stuff that others do.
Wow I remember helping to lift the body onto that car and later hearing it wind up through the backstreets of windsor on tuning runs- was a sweet motor that! 😀
This disclaimer does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either myself, my company, my friends, or my dog: don't quote me on that; don't quote me on anything; this disclaimer is subject to change without notice; text is slightly enlarged to show detail; resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; dry clean only; do not bend, fold, or mutilate; anchovies or jalapenos added to this disclaimer upon request; your mileage may vary; no substitutions are allowed; for a limited time only while supplies last; offer void where prohibited; this disclaimer is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied

pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#807801
matberry wrote:Speaking of bigger suck bang blow

Check out this, 1915 making 248 @ 9700



Suck on that !!! Has to be Nitro for sure 😂😂😂.
just watched it. MENTAL

I guess it's all down to more revs = more power... if you can keep it together... 🤪
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber

366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·

#807807
if its doing 9700 rpm then it might make 248 hp (American)

it sounded sweet but I wonder for how long ❓

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807813
johny rotten wrote:if its doing 9700 rpm then it might make 248 hp (American)

it sounded sweet but I wonder for how long ❓
Why would it be American HP Johnny? Engine is in Sweden, Europe not USA.

It's the Japs that seem to have the tiny pony measurement IMO.


You should read the whole thread, it makes for a very interesting and informative read.
I would expect quite a reasonable longevety if treated right too.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

fish26 Fahrvergnugen

903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·

#807826
no nitro on that beast, just clever engineering, light parts and great heads, Johannes sure knows how to build engines.
bitten by the bug..........several times

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#807855
There's a lot of money tied up just in pistons in some of those motors. Clever engineering, but for the time, effort and cost involved definatly not sensible for the average enthusiast.
On a slightly different note why is it that the bigger the motor the wilder the camshaft people seem to think you can use? If everything is sized proportionally to the displacement (valves, ports etc) wouldnt the powerband characteristics of say an fk87 be the same on a 1600 as a 2332? rocker ratio may have to come down to reduce lift on the smaller valve I suppose and a 1600 off cam would be soggy compared to a 2.3 off cam. Any other thoughts?

Maybe stanley needs to try an fk87, proven performer on the old pro turbo cars!

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#807874
fish26 wrote:no nitro on that beast, just clever engineering, light parts and great heads, Johannes sure knows how to build engines.

Fish, the Nitro comment is from here.
johny rotten wrote:those numbers are a bit hard to believe 😵‍💫


101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?
In the thread there is stacks of info on the builds of JPM's engines, Johannes Persson is certainly a mistro when it comes to high HP AC VW's.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

fish26 Fahrvergnugen

903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·

#807880
sorry mate, my head's so into my own engine build I missed the sarcasm.............sure it must be nitro with a bit of magic.
bitten by the bug..........several times

hypo-vw Australias 1st 10sec street beetle (Jan 2007) 10.49secs@132m

2,151 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#807905
Craig Torrens wrote:What I find hard to believe would be how you can get CR 12.8:1 with a 1640............how did you achieve that Wayne ? Dome top pistons ?
Craig, I have engine building specs for nearly every engine I have assembled in the past 15 years . I have dug through my specs sheets and found the one for my speedway engine ....
My 1640cc engine had 1mm deckheight , 27cc chambers and 1.75cc piston notches . I have rechecked my calculations and this combo gave me a cr of 12.82 .
I have in the past experimented with comp ratios and set an 1835 engine at 17:1 on avgas with a 20cc chamber , but it ran like a diesel . Heaps of torque , very harsh and pinged .....
Team

FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
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pete wood 23 Windows of Awesome

6,828 posts · joined Jan 2004 ·

#808180
SuperOwen wrote:There's a lot of money tied up just in pistons in some of those motors. Clever engineering, but for the time, effort and cost involved definatly not sensible for the average enthusiast.
The price of parts generally all comes down to demand. If more 'average' enthusiasts started you use his pistons, he could order bigger batches and the price would come down markedly. That's why the US stuff is so much cheaper, coz they make it huge batches. Same as iphones and TVs. People probably had the same attitude to forged stroker cranks in the 70s, "like who such serious engineering", but now they are made in enormous batches and are reasonably affordable to everyone in the scene.
"stoopid is stronger than axles"
http://drivingnotpolishing.blogspot.com.au/

fish26 Fahrvergnugen

903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·

#808187
most of JPM engines use custom pistons and barrels as they are per engine basis hence their expense.............a group buy from JE would be cool though and we'd all have similar base engines, apples with apples.
bitten by the bug..........several times

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#808208
Thats what I meant fish, its all custom which makes it expensive. Most if not all of the piston brands will take a custom order, but can you imagine trying to get everyone to agree on what specs they want for a group buy? At the end of the day you've still got a 1600 that cost twice as much to build as the 2276 with off the shelf parts and still spanked you!!

I like stanleys combo because it doesn't use anything exotic, making the most of commonly available stuff.

BeetleBug Casual Dubber

22 posts · joined Feb 2010 ·

#808214
matberry wrote:Speaking of bigger suck bang blow

Check out this, 1915 making 248 @ 9700



Suck on that !!! Has to be Nitro for sure 😂😂😂.
It is Shell V-Power pump gas. 99 octane. Easily available in Europe.

He changed the header design this weekend and managed 252hp at 9000 rpm and with a wopping 8hp increase at 7000 rpms. These are incredible improvements when you are at this level. He is also going to bump the compression a little and according to his calculations the finished engine will produce a healthy 265hp / 138.4 hp/lit.

Mahles 87`s are not forged and have never been forged either. Still, if they can handle 2.6-2.8 bar of boost I would not worry about their quality.

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·

#808267
Hi BB
So Mahles 87's can handle upto 40 psi boost......wow, can't be too bad.

Johannes is being silly...138.4 hp/liter......congrats...he da man... 👍
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#808314
BeetleBug wrote:Mahles 87`s are not forged and have never been forged either. Still, if they can handle 2.6-2.8 bar of boost I would not worry about their quality.
Confirms my suspicions so I guess it comes down to the tune up with me. Still considering Nissan pistons though. I think they would be more forgiving. Just need to get a hold of one to check it out.

Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#808343
The first ones are definately Mahle and the second ones are the AA pistons. Which I have also used in 85.5 with the turbo and actually my notch is currently fitted with a set of AA 87mm pistons with no problems that i'm aware of.

I have used Mahle pistons but don't know about the graphite coating.

If you go by a price comparison you can tell there not forged. A complete set of 87mm B&P for $300 compared to 87mm forged ACL SR20 pistons (no barrels for obvious reasons) $660. The forging process warrants a higher price.

I can also remember that cast pistons have a strengthening band built into the inside of them which you can see on some pistons.

BeetleBug Casual Dubber

22 posts · joined Feb 2010 ·

#808479
matberry wrote:Hi BB
So Mahles 87's can handle upto 40 psi boost......wow, can't be too bad.

Johannes is being silly...138.4 hp/liter......congrats...he da man... 👍

The Mahles do handle those amounts of boost in the 1641/354hp turbo engine I mentioned earlier in this thread;

- Original crank, not counterweighted
- CB h rods 5,5"
- Mahle 87mm pistons and cylinders
- Single relief engine case
- Fk-89 camshaft
- lube a lobe lifters
- cromolly pushrods
- scat 1,4:1 rockers
- Orginal heads with orginal valves 35/32,5mm. Ported intakes and exhaust.

But if you mess up your tuning they will crack, but so would Autocrafts, JayCee`s, Pauter etc etc. The same engine dyno`d 394hp at the JPM dyno day. It is not a JPM built engine.

Keep us updated with your project. It is always interesting to read about small, capable engines. Buy yourself a good ECU, add a bigger turbo and go racing!

Best rgs
BB

Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#819413
Just a quick update for those interested.

I've just fittted new spring plate bushes and lowered the rear end a tad but more importantly I've Just purchased some 87mm Mahle SR20 forged Nissan pistons.
Should have them next week. Then it's off to DB's to shorten the barrels, pushrods and other bits to make them fit.

Let the games begin

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#819472
Are the nissan pistons just a plain flat top?

dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome

5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 ·

#819480
I think they are slightly dished, so we will flycut the head too, to restore the comprerssion.
westi wrote:That's mad Alan.

Sides Veteran Volks Folk

2,220 posts · joined May 2007 ·

#819482
Amazing the symmetry of things sometimes... the Nissan dudes I know through racing say that running VW pistons in an SR20 is a pretty common trick... apparently they're a bit lighter and also slightly increases the compression !!!

😂
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Stanley I guess the reward is in the doing of it

4,523 posts · joined Mar 2003 ·

#819543
the nissan pistons have the same gudgeon size as a volksy but they are 7mm shorter.

this means everything will be shortened 7mm. Barrels. intake, exhaust mods, pushrods and tinware.

and yes they are much lighter and are also coated with anti friction compound.

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·

#819843
Sounds perfect for a stout little motrr, any other changes while your at it? same cam etc?