MSD - Is it worth it? · Aussieveedubbers

Craig S · 2011-11-06T11:00:18+00:00

Howdy, Let's start with the dumb question: I understand that in a standard system you have a coil and the distributor. In a MSD system you still have the coil and distributor, but you also have the additional box (i.e. the 6AL seems to be popular). What exactly is the function of the box?? Based on what I can read on the MSD site it is a capacitor: "It draws its energy directly from the battery where a custom wound transformer steps it up to over 460 volts. This voltage is then stored in a capacitor until the ignition is triggered. At this point, all of the voltage is dumped into the coil where it is transformed into even more voltage, anywhere from 30,000 - 45,000 volts depending on the coil, which is sent to the distributor and finally to the plugs." Secondly, is there really sufficient improvement in spark/idle/performance/startup to justify the cost of an MSD system for street applications? According to the blurb on their site: "The payoff is complete combustion of the fuel mixture which results in more power, increased throttle response, a smooth idle, quick starts, improved economy and reduced plug fouling." I'm surprised they don't claim that it makes you a hot breakfast when it's not busy healing the sick!! At this point it's just idle curiosity more than anything else. I know that asking ignition related questions will result in a thousand opinions and occassionally bloodshed, but I look forward to hearing the opinions. Cheers Craig

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 · 10 Nov 2011, 2:12 pm

#871406

Imac wrote:OK comparing a drag cars ignition requirements to a street car is irrelevant. The drag car only needs accurate ignition at full revs and full load a magneto does the job.
A 009 (the most evil thing out there) being centrifical only has no way of adjusting for load. Put your foot down or climb a hill the dizzy has to catch up as revs increase. I have a stock 67 that will stay original I mean points and original dizzy and a pict30-1 and it will stay that way, if you change to an electronic module it's not original hence go the whole hog. Anything performance oriented ie high compression high revving you need to compensate for lack of lead and low fuel octane. If you want the best get your head out of the last century and get rid that dizzy. Also if I can fit EDIS so can any trained monkey, yes it's that simple and I can return back to stock quicker than it would take to remove your compufire and refit and set your points. Yes I have used compufire, yes, cleaner spark but no real benefit when it comes flexibility there is none. As far as changing weights and springs to change the characteristics of the dizzy how do you adjust +or- over a narrow rev or load range without affecting everywhere else?
PS EDIS has a 10 degree fail safe if there is a total computer failure so you will get home.👍
PSS I set my plug gap on the EDIS at 40thou/1mm and there's plenty of juice to jump at lest 60thou

MSD is a multiple Spark Discharge system. That is so different than any module OR EDIS.

Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 10 Nov 2011, 3:32 pm

#871418

ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
about 5 years , drag racing and all

wow you don't drive much.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

Imac Commited Dubber

67 posts · joined Dec 2009 · 10 Nov 2011, 3:44 pm

#871421

http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html
EDIS is multi spark discharge see paragraph 7 of technical section
As far as value for money, which is the threads topic, $300 complete, make two brackets, mount trigger wheel on pulley and about a meter of shielded wire, job done and you get all the features of many much dearer units. I don't now what it doesn't have that you may need. It can have hard or soft rev limiter. Can be configured for gear change light etc. Admittedly it only has a 10*10 table where as others have 16*16 or more but it is interpolated or smoothed buy the software so there is no appreciable difference. As far as mapping the stock map is as good as any dizzy curve and a good base to play from.

ian.mezz I never said, I could write or spell

3,913 posts · joined Sep 2004 · 10 Nov 2011, 6:23 pm

#871443

vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
about 5 years , drag racing and all
wow you don't drive much.

how much do you drive your VW ????

😂🤪😂🤪😂
car forums. where a lot of peoples good intentions end up taking a good old car off the road forever never ever to see the road again. 🥲

matberry Moderator Go hard or go home

8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 · 10 Nov 2011, 9:35 pm

#871492

I stand corrected, didn't realise EDIS was multiple spark. Still when you see the actual output comparisons they are two different beasts. I'll admit that MSD isn't cheap.

Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE

1303Steve Scirocco Rare

8,650 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 10 Nov 2011, 9:48 pm

#871499

Imac wrote:http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html
EDIS is multi spark discharge see paragraph 7 of technical section
As far as value for money, which is the threads topic, $300 complete, make two brackets, mount trigger wheel on pulley and about a meter of shielded wire, job done and you get all the features of many much dearer units. I don't now what it doesn't have that you may need. It can have hard or soft rev limiter. Can be configured for gear change light etc. Admittedly it only has a 10*10 table where as others have 16*16 or more but it is interpolated or smoothed buy the software so there is no appreciable difference. As far as mapping the stock map is as good as any dizzy curve and a good base to play from.

Hi

I'm interested, where can you buy these systems from?

Steve

Imac Commited Dubber

67 posts · joined Dec 2009 · 11 Nov 2011, 6:55 am

#871519

For the EDIS http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EDIS-4-Ignition-Module-Ford-Kit-36-1-VR-Coil-Megas...

For the Megajolt http://www.autosportlabs.com/megajolte-p-41.html

read the forums on the samba and autosportlabs for more info

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 11 Nov 2011, 9:59 am

#871544

ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
about 5 years , drag racing and all
wow you don't drive much.
how much do you drive your VW ????

I reserve my VW for restoration, but I drive my daily a modest average 1000ks a week. Often 1500ks a week some months. I have serviced my car like 9 or 10 times this year alone.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

76bug Officially Full-On Dubber

215 posts · joined Feb 2005 · 11 Nov 2011, 10:04 am

#871545

ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rnLike any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,rnjust make sure that your vw electrics or all good.rnRod penrose sells compufire.rnwe have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
rnrnso thats 6 months and still good?
rnabout 5 years , drag racing and all
rnrnwow you don't drive much.
rnrnhow much do you drive your VW ????
rnrnI reserve my VW for restoration, but I drive my daily a modest average 1000ks a week. Often 1500ks a week some months. I have serviced my car like 9 or 10 times this year alone.

so vlad01 what is your point exactly, by stating you drive your holden 1000Ks a week?

Craig S Wolfsburg Wizard

635 posts · joined May 2008 · 13 Nov 2011, 12:24 pm

#871948

OK, we'll ignore Vlad's need for affirmation regarding driving distances and the apparent fact that only he is allowed to drive his VW short distances, and get back to the topic.

In the few moments I've had, I've been looking at the links Ian provided and have a few questions:

In this link of instructions it mentions two outputs, PIP and SAW. I take it that both of those are communicated to the Megajolt box, which can then be programmed. What versions of windows are supported by the tuning program?

http://www.autosportlabs.net/MJLJ_V4_vehicle_installation_guide

In the kit available on ebay it has the toothed wheel, but you can't see whether it also has allowance for the pulley behind it? Would you therefore somehow need to attach this wheel to the pulley, or should it be all in one?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EDIS-4-Ignition-Module-Ford-Kit-36-1-VR-Coil-Megasquirt-Magajolt-/110770964876?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19ca76c98c

In fact it would seem that the wheel in the kit has a much smaller diameter than the stock pulley wheel. VW pulley seems to be about 172mm wheel vs 144mm OD and 104mm ID of the toothed one in the kit.

How then do you attach it? Do you have any tinware clearance issues?

Ian, if you have any photos of your setup are you able to share them?

One last one (for the moment). Once this is set up, how much more of a jump is it to EFI?

Thanks for the help and contructive input so far.

Craig

1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita

Imac Commited Dubber

67 posts · joined Dec 2009 · 13 Nov 2011, 5:42 pm

#872003

Looks like it's time to work out how to post photos, PM your email address and I'll email you some to you, I mount the toothed wheel spaced about 14mm of the face of the pulley to allow the VR senser to clear, I'll take some photos. If you're planning EFI in the foreseeable future I'd look into Megasquirt, Megajolts EFI big brother you can use it for just ignition until your ready for EFI

Craig S Wolfsburg Wizard

635 posts · joined May 2008 · 15 Nov 2011, 1:43 pm

#872375

PM sent

1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 15 Nov 2011, 11:25 pm

#872457

bus914 wrote:This looks really nice:
http://www.compu-tronix.com/DIS4009.htm

In my ride I have an old Jaycar HEI KC5247 with dwell control + compufire points replacement module for triggering + Second hand Omex Clubman soft rev limiter.

I had a DSE Hi power ignition kit a couple of years ago...
it DID make a difference to the power of the car..
it put about 32 volts into the coil.. [high resistance coil]
I was using points in the distributor which wore down and shorted out and burnt out the transistor..
I haven't repaired it as yet, and also have another kit to build.

The biggest improvement to My engine power [that I could feel] is the BOSCH SVDA distributor [from aircooled.net in the USA] with a pertronix kit inside..
although it went just as good with the points... in the SVDA.

its so smooth from idle to maximum revs... 7.5 BTDC at idle to 36 degrees BTDC at revs over 3000rpm
[with the vacuum working] 7.5 BTDC to 30 BTDC with the vacuum plugged up..

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 16 Nov 2011, 9:50 am

#872493

76bug wrote:

ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rnLike any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,rnjust make sure that your vw electrics or all good.rnRod penrose sells compufire.rnwe have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
rnrnso thats 6 months and still good?
rnabout 5 years , drag racing and all
rnrnwow you don't drive much.
rnrnhow much do you drive your VW ????
rnrnI reserve my VW for restoration, but I drive my daily a modest average 1000ks a week. Often 1500ks a week some months. I have serviced my car like 9 or 10 times this year alone.
so vlad01 what is your point exactly, by stating you drive your holden 1000Ks a week?

Just saying, that wish I didn't have to drive that much. I feel bad driving that much and can't avoid those annoyances on the road that end up trashing everything 🙁

You have done very well to get away with only that much driving.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE