Thanks, Matt.
Getting some great info today.
Whille cleaning up to check the inner bushes the old slipper bearing was hooked out of the top beam tube.
This casts a doubt over the condition of the plastic bush as the trailing arm has been running on it.
The lower bush was drifted out with the usual resistance. I think the plastic bush is okay.
The bushes were, however lined with a bronze/vinyl bush rather than the sintered bronze style removed from the donor beam.
Probably eliminated the need for reaming, saving costs. It's a shame, really.
These vinyl bushes I wouldnt expect to last indefinitely!
I am going to try fitting these secondhand ones in the first pic.
In the second pic the old bushes. Upper bush was spat out to rattle around on the spring pack.
Lower bush shows the vinyl peeling off the slipper.
When i did my silicon aluminium bronze bushes in my early front end i machined the OD with about .1MM clearence, with about .05MM on the ID, i then machined a manderal and glued the bushes in place with loctite 680. this eliminated the need to ream the bushes, been in there for years, any wear in the inner bushes will be exagerated at the ball joint end and will cause all types of problems like wandering under brakes and tram linning.
Lucky Phil wrote:You are welcome Wayne. Stay tuned - there should be plenty of good stuff to follow.
Not everyone is fortunate enough to come into a bent beam to slice up.
I don't think I could have ruined a good beam just for a look inside.
Here's a pic of the needle rollers out.
They took a bit of a dent on the inside from the slide hammer, but they are okay to use again.
YIKES
I'm just glad that You had a bent beam to open UP and NOT a good one.. lol
Great PICS and info there...
OK on the reaming etc.. Very interesting..
also shows what happens when not greased all the time...
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
nils wrote:I really like the full bronze bushes idea, becuase delrin is brittle, very little resistance though. i swear i have broken one already 🙁
After looking at your avatar picture, no wonder!
😂
I have come up with a few thoughts about replacing with a solid bush.
Firstly, the needle roller traps grease where a solid bush will not. A solid bush is going to require more frequent lubrication.
Secondly, The bush can be made out of almost any material, within reason, but application is going to be a factor. Cheaper and more brittle bush stock is okay for an occasional use vehicle, but aerobatics are going to need a different material!
Thirdly, lubrication. Notice how this topic keeps on popping up!
The bush stock (and this includes nolathane) will be compatible with only certain types of grease.
If you use a bush stock that needs a specific grease, then it's off to buy a new pot of grease as well as a new grease gun.
Then what happens when you sell the car or fit the beam to someone else's car who gets noddy down the street to service it? How damaging is the wrong grease?
Cheaper and easier to use dearer bush stock compatible with normal lithium grease, surely.
If you have some bush stock handy and it is for your car,then by all means use it if you wish.
For mine, compatibility with lithium GP grease along with durability and workability is the key factor.
If you want affordability, go get a Hyundai!
Hi
Beams are not my usual fair but one advantage you get by going away fro the conventional beam bearings is that the bearings in high mileage front ends can wear a narrow grove in the trailing arm making them unserviceable, a wider solid bush would overcome this.
Steve
Application of the vehicle sure comes into play I think.
For a road going vehicle I'd stick with the needle bearings but for going off-road I think the long urethane bushes would be the better choice as there is still a little give in the urethane for heavy impacts. The needles would just bruise the torsion arm and cause a flat spot.
However, DO NOT buy the EMPI gear. Since Mr Empi passed away the licence to produce many of his parts has gone overseas and the quality is terrible. Fit, finish and materials used are well below par.
I never by EMPI as it's so hard to know which parts are still made in the USA.
Anyhow, just my 2 pennies worth 🙂
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍
Lucky Phil wrote:nils wrote:I really like the full bronze bushes idea, becuase delrin is brittle, very little resistance though. i swear i have broken one already 🙁
Thirdly, lubrication. Notice how this topic keeps on popping up!
The bush stock (and this includes nolathane) will be compatible with only certain types of grease.
If you use a bush stock that needs a specific grease, then it's off to buy a new pot of grease as well as a new grease gun.
Then what happens when you sell the car or fit the beam to someone else's car who gets noddy down the street to service it? How damaging is the wrong grease?
Cheaper and easier to use dearer bush stock compatible with normal lithium grease, surely.
If you have some bush stock handy and it is for your car,then by all means use it if you wish.
For mine, compatibility with lithium GP grease along with durability and workability is the key factor.
If you want affordability, go get a Hyundai!
Hi
Needle rollers are VERY HARD... and it takes years to flat spot them... so they would need looking at when You get some play in the arms.. steering??
Long bushes with grease grooves may be OK but I would be greasing them every week..lol
the run of the Mill grease is soap or clay based green stuff...
which I only use on My tappet cover gaskets.. lol
I've always used lithium based Moly grease [since on My Dads beetle in 1964] Yes I was very Young back then... lol
Many people may opt for the cheaper green grease but if its green I won't use it on My cars... lol
cheers
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
Hi
Ive seen the needlle rollers dint the trailing arm after an impact.
Steve
1303Steve wrote:Hi
Ive seen the needlle rollers dint the trailing arm after an impact.
Steve
Cheers Steve
🙂madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍
Yes, the needle roller bearings are that tough....
Good quality West German steel ..
all they need is a bit of lithium based MOLY grease to keep them lubricated
Lee
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
waveman1500 wrote:I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the standard beam setup works, why change it?
Exactly! poly bushes have their place but not on a torsion suspension system, if it aint broken why fix it? . Poly is good when used to replace bushes where the rotation is minimal and surface area is small. eg, lower control arm bush on Mc pherson strut, link bushes on A arm, or links on a live axle etc...
Also the quality of the bush is important. Noalthane are poo and fail almost straight away, there are brands like super pro and K mac that are many times the quality for a fraction more in price because the proper R &D was done to make these products work unlike some crap ass china parts that looks like it might work.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
vlad01 wrote:waveman1500 wrote:I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the standard beam setup works, why change it?
Exactly! poly bushes have their place but not on a torsion suspension system, if it aint broken why fix it? . Poly is good when used to replace bushes where the rotation is minimal and surface area is small. eg, lower control arm bush on Mc pherson strut, link bushes on A arm, or links on a live axle etc...
Also the quality of the bush is important. Noalthane are poo and fail almost straight away, there are brands like super pro and K mac that are many times the quality for a fraction more in price because the proper R &D was done to make these products work unlike some crap ass china parts that looks like it might work.
ah, where's the 'like' button when you need it
🙂madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍
The only place you can use poly on a vw is the inner pivot points on the semi trailing arms as they meet the criteria for poly bushes, but there isn't any available (maybe CSP or US made bushes are good?) in a brand that I know and trust, only crap noalthane and the empi junk variety, which thankfully I never have touched those "manufactures" in any of the dubs I have over the years.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
vwo60 wrote:When i did my silicon aluminium bronze bushes in my early front end i machined the OD with about .1MM clearence, with about .05MM on the ID, i then machined a manderal and glued the bushes in place with loctite 680. this eliminated the need to ream the bushes, been in there for years, any wear in the inner bushes will be exagerated at the ball joint end and will cause all types of problems like wandering under brakes and tram linning.
I like the idea of the bronze bushes, I may have to resort to this if I can't find good NOS inner bushes for mine, they are a rare unstable isotope of the element unobtainium.
2 years of searching, wanted ads blah. best I could find is 2 rusty pairs which may or may not be good enough.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Try sourcing good secondhand ones from old abandoned and especially bent beams.
The bush pictured here came out of a bent beam and is in good shape.
The car must have been crashed at low miles many moons ago.
Lucky Phil wrote:Try sourcing good secondhand ones from old abandoned and especially bent beams.
The bush pictured here came out of a bent beam and is in good shape.
The car must have been crashed at low miles many moons ago.
Good? I have a beam with bushes look new compared to that. Also was bent but no accident, engine fire and was put out of action in 79-80 and it was a 70 model with 22k? on the clock. the arm was bent from the crane that crushed the roof sideways when picked up and must of been dropped on its side bending the arm and beam, was evident from the way the needle rollers were damaged. Anyways the problem is getting them out without damaging the bushings.
Well the good news is I might have NOS bearing after all, just checked today again with a guy in Belgium and he recons he might have 0.1mm oversize OD NOS bushes. Just confirming the PN now.
I regularly check with a few of the privet suppliers of NOS stuff in Europe and I might be in luck today.
wish me luck!
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
When i did the front end i did both the inner and outer bushes.
^ yup, good ideal to do the lot and also replace the arms if necessary (check with micrometer)
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
vlad01 wrote:Lucky Phil wrote:Try sourcing good secondhand ones from old abandoned and especially bent beams.
The bush pictured here came out of a bent beam and is in good shape.
The car must have been crashed at low miles many moons ago.
Good? I have a beam with bushes look new compared to that. Also was bent but no accident, engine fire and was put out of action in 79-80 and it was a 70 model with 22k? on the clock. the arm was bent from the crane that crushed the roof sideways when picked up and must of been dropped on its side bending the arm and beam, was evident from the way the needle rollers were damaged. Anyways the problem is getting them out without damaging the bushings.
Well the good news is I might have NOS bearing after all, just checked today again with a guy in Belgium and he recons he might have 0.1mm oversize OD NOS bushes. Just confirming the PN now.
I regularly check with a few of the privet suppliers of NOS stuff in Europe and I might be in luck today.
wish me luck!
Yeah, Good. Not perfect, but this one should get me out of trouble.
If you want better, just turn one up!
I made a slide hammer to remove this one no worries.
I will post pics of it later.
But if you have found NOS stuff, then even better!
BTW, i think I can lay my hands on a type 3 beam, complete I think. Let me know if interested.
So can I, I know where there are NOS beams but the shipping overseas would be expensive and I don't know which models they are for.❓
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
I have just been looking on CIP1 and I was surprised at what parts are still availiable.
Original Micarta bushes, slipper type metal bushes, needle rollers.
Even new beams with all bushes/bearings installed.
Didn't seem that dear,either.
SHIPPING is the killer..
can be more than the parts.. especially if heavy
over 500 grams...
I just looked at a new magnetic pertronix ring for My distributor
$17-95 and $39 postage..
and they don't weight much at all...
LEE
- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---
^ Too true.
I just googled Micarta.
Micarta is a trademark of Norplex-Micarta.
The process was developed by George Westinghouse of Westinghouse company fame around 1910.
It is a combination of a bonding agent (epoxy etc) and a fabric (cotton, linen etc.)
It has come to mean any process where a bonding agent and fabric combination is used.
There was a really interesting site where Denim/Epoxy knife handles were being made. Great stuff.
Delrin is the brand name Mr DuPont of Dupont Corp. fame gave to his version of the polymer Polyoxymethylene (!) in the late 1950's.
Also known as Acetal, Polyacetal and Polyformaldehyde, they are all referred to as acetal resins.
Their structure is self supporting, and is regarded as a superior product by the manufacturers,
probably due to lower manufacturing costs.
As for performance, who knows?
See if Heritage in the UK do the inner bushes. They are the most comprehensive parts supplier in the UK and the winner is they are much cheaper for postage.
I don't know why but getting anything out of the USA is very expensive whereas postage within the country is very cheap. 60k across USA only cost $200. Not bad really 🙂
madness is in the eye of the beholder 👍
68AutoBug wrote:SHIPPING is the killer..
can be more than the parts.. especially if heavy
over 500 grams...
I just looked at a new magnetic pertronix ring for My distributor
$17-95 and $39 postage..
and they don't weight much at all...
LEE
thats weird? seems to me shipping from OS is cheaper overall than buying local. I find Aussie shipping services are getting ridiculous, slow service, expensive and have had lost items a few times. never had any of this problem from OS yet. Although can get more expensive if the item is heavy, like 10kg + but thats why you buys heaps at once from the same person if you can, that way shipping per item is cheap as chips.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
Lucky Phil wrote:Delrin is the brand name Mr DuPont of Dupont Corp. fame gave to his version of the polymer Polyoxymethylene (!) in the late 1950's.
Also known as Acetal, Polyacetal and Polyformaldehyde, they are all referred to as acetal resins.
Their structure is self supporting, and is regarded as a superior product by the manufacturers,
probably due to lower manufacturing costs.
As for performance, who knows?
performance? apparently works good for a while but people say they flog out easy and need replacing on a semi regular basis, but still are supposedly better than urethane in beam applications.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE
