Lets talk Gearboxes

Allbones Officially Full-On Dubber

395 posts · joined Jul 2012 · 26 Mar 2013, 12:35 pm

#948954

OK, So there is plenty of Engine info, not so much on the gearbox side of things. I just had a query that I was hoping you may be able to help me with.

Is it cheaper to by a Top end Swing axel box or rebuild the one I have?
The Syncro on my current box seems buggered as second and third can catch pretty badly when gearing down. So I'm currently weighing up my different options as I dont like doing or paying for things multiple times.

Box must take up to 400hp and accosiated abuse of daily driving and drag racing.

This figure is a guesstimate based on the future plans I have, which would be a worked 2332, I'd also like to know that if I wanted I could run a turbo and not need to replace the box. I've then allowed for abit more on top of that as insurrance haha.

Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
John.

11CAB If ya got it....Baja it

4,674 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 26 Mar 2013, 1:23 pm

#948965

What are your plans for the car? Registered?

You'll be flat out finding any vw drag beetles running 400hp, so I think your estimate is a bit high

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Allbones Officially Full-On Dubber

395 posts · joined Jul 2012 · 26 Mar 2013, 2:07 pm

#948971

11CAB wrote:What are your plans for the car? Registered?

You'll be flat out finding any vw drag beetles running 400hp, so I think your estimate is a bit high

Will be a daily. Ive seen a few running injected turbo engines putting out 310hp or so. As I said the additional on top of that was "insurance".

Ultimately it will probably just end up with a 2332 in it. But I would like to know I have the reliability in the gearbox if I chose to go to a turbo set up later.

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 · 26 Mar 2013, 3:29 pm

#948975

Have a talk to Dave Butler, he is the gear box guru that i use, he in on the gold coast, just search the forums to find him.

1916baja Custom Title Time!

1,990 posts · joined Sep 2007 · 26 Mar 2013, 3:35 pm

#948977

"Dangerous" on here.. a gearbox to throw 400hp at, is a serious gearbox. Don't expect it to be cheap. And 400hp in a daily... Wow! I reckon you would have a smile from ear to ear every day with 150hp atw.

Allbones Officially Full-On Dubber

395 posts · joined Jul 2012 · 26 Mar 2013, 4:05 pm

#948981

1916baja wrote:a gearbox to throw 400hp at, is a serious gearbox.

Am I being too ambitious here? I was assuming that, given the amount of higher displacement engines out there that it didnt seem like such a feat.

What should I be aiming for with a 2332? (allowing for possible forced induction at a later date, money and time permiting.)

1916baja wrote:And 400hp in a daily... Wow! I reckon you would have a smile from ear to ear every day with 150hp atw.

I doubt I'll make 400hp, haha, I'd be happy at around 300-320 when I'm all done. If I can get 200+ out of the engine I get built and around 150rwhp or so i'll be stoked. That should put be somewhere close to a 12 second 1/4 pass right? haha

I'm just looking at gearbox now as it is slightly more pressing than a new engine and as much as I would love to throw $10000 at my car in one go, my wallet says otherwise, haha.

Is something like this reputable? What sort of bang for buck will I get?

http://www.drdracingheads.com/xcart/RANCHO-PRO-COMP-PLUS-swing-axle-complete.html

STIDUB Over it.

1,497 posts · joined Jun 2008 · 26 Mar 2013, 4:19 pm

#948983

There's a guy in nz with a box & engine combo for sale on here that may suit?
Again, see db, he built my box to handle the abuse my boosted ej20 will give it, but I also spent a fair chunk of coin...
If you're serious, see Dave 🙂
Fixed the rear drum yet? :P

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Sides Veteran Volks Folk

2,220 posts · joined May 2007 · 26 Mar 2013, 4:29 pm

#948986

Ummm, yeah - I think maybe you are being a bit ambitious... especially for a Swing Axle.

Taking a look through the dyno sheets thread (http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=25222) will give you some idea, but basically 2332 non-turbo I'd be thinking 140+ rwhp without going too exotic, adding forced induction say maybe 230 rwhp ?

For comparison most of the turbo subaru guys aren't anywhere up near 400hp... maybe 270 rwhp and I think Wayne Penrose had maybe 430 rwhp from his turbo'd type IV, 2.8 something litre... which is definitely a race engine and by no means a daily.

Either way rather than Swing Axle start thinking bus box (5 rib), Albins gearsets, good diff, and yeah... all that sort of stuff don't come cheap and is WAAAY above what you get in one of those Rancho boxes.

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Allbones Officially Full-On Dubber

395 posts · joined Jul 2012 · 26 Mar 2013, 4:36 pm

#948988

Sides wrote:Ummm, yeah - I think maybe you are being a bit ambitious... especially for a Swing Axle.

Taking a look through the dyno sheets thread (http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=25222) will give you some idea, but basically 2332 non-turbo I'd be thinking 140+ rwhp without going too exotic, adding forced induction say maybe 230 rwhp ?

For comparison most of the turbo subaru guys aren't anywhere up near 400hp... maybe 270 rwhp and I think Wayne Penrose had maybe 430 rwhp from his turbo'd type IV, 2.8 something litre... which is definitely a race engine and by no means a daily.

Either way rather than Swing Axle start thinking bus box (5 rib), Albins gearsets, good diff, and yeah... all that sort of stuff don't come cheap and is WAAAY above what you get in one of those Rancho boxes.

I was only referring to 400hp, not rwhp, should have clarified earlier sorry. 😊

What is the limit of a swing axel box? The only thing I definately want later down the track is the 2332. If i dont have the option to go forced induction I can deal with that.

STIDUB wrote:Fixed the rear drum yet? :P

Haha yes, everything is sorted now, cars all lowered and back on the road. I really need to get some photos and update my thread.

modulus Veteran Volks Folk

2,009 posts · joined Jul 2003 · 26 Mar 2013, 4:38 pm

#948989

Allbones wrote:
1916baja wrote:a gearbox to throw 400hp at, is a serious gearbox.
Am I being too ambitious here? I was assuming that, given the amount of higher displacement engines out there that it didnt seem like such a feat.

What should I be aiming for with a 2332? (allowing for possible forced induction at a later date, money and time permiting.)

400 (flywheel) H.P. from a 2332 is 171 H.P./litre; allowing 20% gearbox losses, let's say 140 H.P./litre at the wheels.

After 10+ years of serious, well-considered development, Dave Butler is making ~ 100 H.P./litre at the wheels in his N/A drag beetle with a Type 1 motor. Bear in mind that this is a two-valve-per-cylinder, pushrod-activated motor.

A Yamaha R1 makes about 179 (flywheel) H.P. at 12,500 RPM, with 16 valves, DOHC and 12.5:1 compression ratio.

Are you planning on a DOHC configuration? How many valves per cylinder? How many revs? What compression ratio?

Before you throw money at a gearbox suitable for a "400 H.P." motor, it's best to do the basic math to see whether that is in the realm of reality.

hth

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modulus.com.au

1916baja Custom Title Time!

1,990 posts · joined Sep 2007 · 26 Mar 2013, 5:11 pm

#948994

STIDUB wrote:There's a guy in nz with a box & engine combo for sale on here that may suit?
Again, see db, he built my box to handle the abuse my boosted ej20 will give it, but I also spent a fair chunk of coin...
If you're serious, see Dave 🙂
Fixed the rear drum yet? :P

I bought most of the engine gear and the box sold...

hellbugged 48's and straight cuts

5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 · 26 Mar 2013, 7:22 pm

#949011

Build and drive the motor first.... Then you will know what gearing you will need and for how much HP

Allbones Officially Full-On Dubber

395 posts · joined Jul 2012 · 26 Mar 2013, 7:32 pm

#949012

modulus wrote:
Allbones wrote:
1916baja wrote:a gearbox to throw 400hp at, is a serious gearbox.
Am I being too ambitious here? I was assuming that, given the amount of higher displacement engines out there that it didnt seem like such a feat.

What should I be aiming for with a 2332? (allowing for possible forced induction at a later date, money and time permiting.)
400 (flywheel) H.P. from a 2332 is 171 H.P./litre; allowing 20% gearbox losses, let's say 140 H.P./litre at the wheels.

After 10+ years of serious, well-considered development, Dave Butler is making ~ 100 H.P./litre at the wheels in his N/A drag beetle with a Type 1 motor. Bear in mind that this is a two-valve-per-cylinder, pushrod-activated motor.

A Yamaha R1 makes about 179 (flywheel) H.P. at 12,500 RPM, with 16 valves, DOHC and 12.5:1 compression ratio.

Are you planning on a DOHC configuration? How many valves per cylinder? How many revs? What compression ratio?

Before you throw money at a gearbox suitable for a "400 H.P." motor, it's best to do the basic math to see whether that is in the realm of reality.

hth

Didnt mean to ruffle any feathers.

I do realise 400 from a 2332 is unlikely/not possible, as I said in my second comment in the thread.

The reason I stated that is because I wanted a strong box, something I don't have to worry about every time I drop the clutch. I was just thinking reliability.

Thank you to those who commented though. Will look into Dave Butler, seems to be the go.

Allbones Officially Full-On Dubber

395 posts · joined Jul 2012 · 26 Mar 2013, 7:35 pm

#949014

hellbugged wrote:Build and drive the motor first.... Then you will know what gearing you will need and for how much HP

Problem is the syncro in my box is muffed already. Sick of gears catching every time I gear down.

I was just trying to get it sorted to begin with rather than pull the box out, rebuild it, then 12 months down the road have to pull it out and build it again.

barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem

9,473 posts · joined Jun 2004 · 26 Mar 2013, 7:43 pm

#949018

this is possibly the biggest hipo engine ive seen and its still no where near 400Hp

just pointing it out thats all.

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hellbugged 48's and straight cuts

5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 · 26 Mar 2013, 7:58 pm

#949021

If you are running a stockish motor, then rebuild your stock box. When it's time for the big motor and box, a standard rebuilt one will be easy to sell for good money.

Effectively a box built for performance is almost entirely parts that you will buy new..... Expect to pay at least $4k .... And up depending on spec$

Search some of dangerous posts and take note of the hours and hours of labour necessary to make a strong gearbox.... $$$$

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 · 26 Mar 2013, 8:22 pm

#949026

400hp is doable with a turbo setup, not easy but quite possible. If your going all out then a Kombi box may be a better solution long term, although that means going IRS. You can do a Folts swinglaxle conversion, not sure if theres any reason you can't in a street car?

whathaveidone Custom Title Time!

1,559 posts · joined Feb 2010 · 26 Mar 2013, 8:59 pm

#949033

I just built a swing axle box with rino case and full set of albins gears and alloy spool. Very expensive but should handle anything i can throw at it!!!!

bajachris88 The international telephone dialing code for Antarctica is 6

6,661 posts · joined Apr 2005 · 26 Mar 2013, 9:45 pm

#949042

Have you considered subi gears?

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SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 · 27 Mar 2013, 7:27 am

#949056

whathaveidone wrote:I just built a swing axle box with rino case and full set of albins gears and alloy spool. Very expensive but should handle anything i can throw at it!!!!

Yes, but we all know you throw like a girl. 😁

whathaveidone Custom Title Time!

1,559 posts · joined Feb 2010 · 27 Mar 2013, 11:43 am

#949072

You say that after your effort?????????

SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen

868 posts · joined Jan 2009 · 27 Mar 2013, 12:47 pm

#949076

The effort was there, just not the results!!!