hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
Might need to relocate the rocker studs down the stands 🙁
2180cc build now Turbo
fish26 Fahrvergnugen
903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·
Yeah that was my initial thought, arms look a touch too long even though the sweep motion of the rocker is correct without any shims under the pad. Next is to find correct offset rocker shafts instead of relocating the studs.
0.383" @ cam
0.505" @ valve
1.32:1 Empi rockers listed as 1.25:1
happy with lift and duration for the turbo considering light lifters, Aluminium case with stronger lifter bores, should be a long lasting valve train when i get the geometry right.
0.383" @ cam
0.505" @ valve
1.32:1 Empi rockers listed as 1.25:1
happy with lift and duration for the turbo considering light lifters, Aluminium case with stronger lifter bores, should be a long lasting valve train when i get the geometry right.
bitten by the bug..........several times
hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
It looks like the contact on the lash cap is on the portion?
Am i correct assuming this is your concern?
Am i correct assuming this is your concern?
fish26 Fahrvergnugen
903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·
Daimo, where did you get the taller lash caps from, it may solve my issue?
Here's the contact swipe on the lash cap, it will work but its not perfect also the rocker pad seems to have a slight divot where the ink has been skipped.
I thought I'd try the master rockers......Berg 1.4 or so I thought, is there a possibility they could be 1.25 as thats what they measure out to be, only got 0.477" lift
Also I might machine the bottom of the rocker stand pads instead of the heads, has anyone done this before?
thanks for looking
Here's the contact swipe on the lash cap, it will work but its not perfect also the rocker pad seems to have a slight divot where the ink has been skipped.
I thought I'd try the master rockers......Berg 1.4 or so I thought, is there a possibility they could be 1.25 as thats what they measure out to be, only got 0.477" lift
Also I might machine the bottom of the rocker stand pads instead of the heads, has anyone done this before?
thanks for looking
bitten by the bug..........several times
hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
Yeah the bergs smallest rocker was 1.4, they should be marked on the arm, under the cup end of the adjuster screw. P.S those adjusters in yours are not BERG ones.........how and where are you measuring the lift and with what push rod, springs?
Yes been quietly thinking you might need thicker lash caps rather than thinner. The berg ones made for titanium valves are the thickest i could find.....there is a set on the samba at the moment, i think i have a spare set you could try (somewhere 🙄)
I think EVERYTHING from case halves to head studs needs to be tensioned down before you will get accurate numbers to use for spring heights.
Try the spacers and other tricks before commiting to machining, even just to confirm that's what is needed.
I remember getting my mind in a mess thinking a change in one direction would be the effect i was after only to find the opposite results
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=38560&page=6
continues on pages 8 and 10 also
Cool build by the way 👍
Yes been quietly thinking you might need thicker lash caps rather than thinner. The berg ones made for titanium valves are the thickest i could find.....there is a set on the samba at the moment, i think i have a spare set you could try (somewhere 🙄)
I think EVERYTHING from case halves to head studs needs to be tensioned down before you will get accurate numbers to use for spring heights.
Try the spacers and other tricks before commiting to machining, even just to confirm that's what is needed.
I remember getting my mind in a mess thinking a change in one direction would be the effect i was after only to find the opposite results
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=38560&page=6
continues on pages 8 and 10 also
Cool build by the way 👍
fish26 Fahrvergnugen
903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·
Thanks mate I'm not surprised you would have Berg parts lying around and your build in inspiring.
The Berg rockers I tried on just to see if the geometry changes, they are marked with #1 on the bottom, I also found it strange they measured out as 1.25 when Gene was advocate against them but I may have miscalculated in my delirium of valve train numbers.
Above pics are Empi and Bergs together, lift measured with adjustable pushrod and outer spring only as I've always done and usually inner spring does not make a difference, but I may as well try ; )
The Berg rockers I tried on just to see if the geometry changes, they are marked with #1 on the bottom, I also found it strange they measured out as 1.25 when Gene was advocate against them but I may have miscalculated in my delirium of valve train numbers.
Above pics are Empi and Bergs together, lift measured with adjustable pushrod and outer spring only as I've always done and usually inner spring does not make a difference, but I may as well try ; )
bitten by the bug..........several times
matberry Moderator Go hard or go home
8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·
I've machined the stand before to rectify geometery, worked a treat.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
hellbugged 48's and straight cuts
5,080 posts · joined Apr 2003 ·
Yeah adjustable pushrods will give funky numbers.... It will change depending on which part of the foot is in contact too. I was lucky to find a set from the spares that were the correct length to measure lift during build up
I'd like to see both barrels under the head as well.
Dial indicator on retainer to measure with no lash? or off the cam card
Vicious cycle on which comes first," chicken or egg", at this stage of build hey
I'd like to see both barrels under the head as well.
Dial indicator on retainer to measure with no lash? or off the cam card
Vicious cycle on which comes first," chicken or egg", at this stage of build hey
matberry Moderator Go hard or go home
8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·
Also how are you getting those numbers? ie are you measuring full lift at the valve and then finding 1/2 lift, or are you working on cam spec.?
Personally I'm sus on the rockers, Empi and 1.25....two things I tend to avoid.
Personally I'm sus on the rockers, Empi and 1.25....two things I tend to avoid.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
fish26 Fahrvergnugen
903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·
both, first I measure lift @ cam without rockers installed and find half lift @ cam, lock crank, install rockers and adjust the pushrod to get inline, I then double check minimum, half and full lift at the valve, note pushrod length then double check half lift marked on pulley with another set of rockers.
It will work the way it sits now but its not ideal so I'm getting a set of 3mm lash caps to save machining the pedestal.
The amounts that vary with the adjustable pushrod are negligible as I'm getting roughly the same geometry with a number of ratio rockers, seems the problem is in the heads, short valve stems/too high pedestals.
Anyone got a good set of 1.4 rockers they can part with?
cheers
It will work the way it sits now but its not ideal so I'm getting a set of 3mm lash caps to save machining the pedestal.
The amounts that vary with the adjustable pushrod are negligible as I'm getting roughly the same geometry with a number of ratio rockers, seems the problem is in the heads, short valve stems/too high pedestals.
Anyone got a good set of 1.4 rockers they can part with?
cheers
bitten by the bug..........several times
dangerous 23 Windows of Awesome
5,901 posts · joined Jan 2005 ·
How is the progress going?
The geometry problem you have is quite common with heads that have larger seats fitted,
and the tip height being lower than original VW.
The same problem is also a cause of not enough room to coil bind.
There is something also a bit suspect about those rockers only measuring 1.25.
It may just be because of the bogus geometry,
but nearly all berg rockers I have used measure a lot more than the advertised ratio.
The geometry problem you have is quite common with heads that have larger seats fitted,
and the tip height being lower than original VW.
The same problem is also a cause of not enough room to coil bind.
There is something also a bit suspect about those rockers only measuring 1.25.
It may just be because of the bogus geometry,
but nearly all berg rockers I have used measure a lot more than the advertised ratio.
westi wrote:That's mad Alan.
humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism
3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·
And posting this sort of stuff is exceedingly helpful to others.... Please keep the posts coming.
fish26 Fahrvergnugen
903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·
No real progress guys, it seems the only way to get "correct" geometry is to use the Pauter Rockers because of the shorter arm length. I still think a set of 1.25 is the way to go as the heads will not flow enough to take full advantage of the extra lift @ 1.4.
I will keep posting and sharing info and glad if this topic provides help and inspiration to others.
The Bergs will need to be re-measured.....between all the numbers in my head and my 2.5 year old measuring everything with the verniers and dial indicator.
I will keep posting and sharing info and glad if this topic provides help and inspiration to others.
The Bergs will need to be re-measured.....between all the numbers in my head and my 2.5 year old measuring everything with the verniers and dial indicator.
bitten by the bug..........several times
modnrod Fahrvergnugen
978 posts · joined Mar 2011 ·
Are the Pauter rollers the only roller rockers with the shorter arm length?
Do you know which brand nowadays in 1.4 foot rockers has the shorter arm length too?
Is it possible for your build to relocate the rocker shaft using offset steel bushes through modified rocker shaft bolt holes?
Do you know which brand nowadays in 1.4 foot rockers has the shorter arm length too?
Is it possible for your build to relocate the rocker shaft using offset steel bushes through modified rocker shaft bolt holes?
fish26 Fahrvergnugen
903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·
possible but not necessary if the Pauter rockers work, I'm pretty certain that early black Bugpack Rockers had shorter arms very similar to Erson.
bitten by the bug..........several times
SuperOwen Fahrvergnugen
868 posts · joined Jan 2009 ·
Sometimes you just have to decide if the gains in getting something perfect are worth the expense and hassle if your getting it pretty damn close. How close are you to having the adjuster inline with the pushrod at half lift now?
fish26 Fahrvergnugen
903 posts · joined Jul 2007 ·
Owen, I wish it was that easy. Close enough is not good enough for me.
@ half lift adjuster is perfect although I usually look to have good alignment also at full lift as that's where the pushrods and rockers are working the hardest.
The problem is the swipe on the lash cap is not ideal which is affected by the arc of the rocker at half to full lift. If I leave it as it stands there is a chance of premature wear on the guides.
Fun and games.......
@ half lift adjuster is perfect although I usually look to have good alignment also at full lift as that's where the pushrods and rockers are working the hardest.
The problem is the swipe on the lash cap is not ideal which is affected by the arc of the rocker at half to full lift. If I leave it as it stands there is a chance of premature wear on the guides.
Fun and games.......
bitten by the bug..........several times