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Morris 850 vs 'You Know What'

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Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds

2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#976793
This is an ad for the new Morris 850 (not yet called the Mini), from the SMH, August 1962.

They must have been very aware they were competing against the Volkswagen. 'It's £200 cheaper than You Know What.'

And at the bottom, see how it says 'Morris 850 - THE PEOPLE's CAR.'

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oldtub356 Seriously Crusin Dubber

139 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#976794
Well....I'm sure that "You Know Who" will have plenty to say about that...........

HappyDaze Superannuated

2,887 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·

#976795
Oh yeah!!, and how did they shape up against "YOU-KNOW- WHAT" at Bathurst [Armstrong 500] in 1963????
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!

oldtub356 Seriously Crusin Dubber

139 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#976796
There it is !!

ancientbugger Custom Title Time!

1,986 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#976806
4 people in the back of a mini!!!!!

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#976807
i think they were dreaming, a mechanical nightmare like the mini.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#976811
ancientbugger wrote:4 people in the back of a mini!!!!!
Just about to say the same thing.
Futue te ipsum!!!

LUFTMEISTER Veteran Volks Folk

2,041 posts · joined Jul 2005 ·

#976812
How many 62 minis do you see on the road. ? Theres your answer. My2c
Customer service is not dead in Australia.

Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools

MickH Hairy Gutted Sloth

3,389 posts · joined Sep 2003 ·

#976862
ancientbugger wrote:4 people in the back of a mini!!!!!

Yep. More leg room than a beetle as well, but gutless compared to a beetle in standard form. I've got an 850 import in my shed (not mine) and it's actually fun to drive....
tssnq.com.au

modnrod Fahrvergnugen

978 posts · joined Mar 2011 ·

#976901
Put a 1320 into an 850 THEN see how it goes.......

oldtub356 Seriously Crusin Dubber

139 posts · joined Dec 2009 ·

#976905
They certainly chose their words carefully...."cruise"....
would have been more truthful as..."bruise" ...or......."struggle".
62mph/100kph was...."possible"... but you could feel the poor little think wearing out beneath you.
A mini 850 was in need of a rebuid after 50kmiles/80k.kms. A car designed to drive to the pub and
back in the UK didn't translate well to Australian normal usage. Used examples were bought and sold off
pretty quickly.
In 1963, a mate and I drove one from Sydney to Cairns and back, on our 3 weeks annual leave... we
needed the full 3 weeks. What a slow and uncomfortable trip...those little 10 inch wheels are a chiropractors dream.
The later Australian made Mokes were given 13 inch wheels.
The gear "stick" was very long and its main job was to threaten the passenger
...every acceleration/de-acceleration, every pot-hole it waved around furiously demanding more and more
personal space as the car wore out.....eventually being useless for changing gears.
I think that the Vw of the time, with its long overdrive top gear, could rightly claim to ..."cruise"...
With the Mini 850 the reality fell far short of the advertising hype.

ancientbugger Custom Title Time!

1,986 posts · joined Mar 2004 ·

#976907
There's no doubting that a mini is fun to drive, we had a 998cc cooper back in the UK and it was the best car around town, hitting roundabouts without slowing down, absolutely loved it. A nightmare to work on though and not for long drives🙅 Would definitely have another one should one become available.

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#976913
At least the crankshaft was cheap, you could make a new one from a wire coat hanger.

donn Wolfsburg Elder

3,515 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·

#976931
Hmm, how many of todays cars owe their design to the mini, quite a few I'd say, and lets face it, were they ever meant to do really long trips, 50+ years on would you buy a Getz or simmilar if you were going to do lots of long trips, hardly think so.
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!

vwo60 Veteran Volks Folk

2,036 posts · joined Feb 2007 ·

#976943
At least the Getz is a reliable design, a lot people do long trips because they are capable design.

AA003 Custom Title Time!

1,189 posts · joined Oct 2011 ·

#976944
donn wrote:Hmm, how many of todays cars owe their design to the mini, quite a few I'd say, and lets face it, were they ever meant to do really long trips, 50+ years on would you buy a Getz or simmilar if you were going to do lots of long trips, hardly think so.
Probably nil
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.

Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!😂

donn Wolfsburg Elder

3,515 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·

#976948
AA003 wrote:
donn wrote:Hmm, how many of todays cars owe their design to the mini, quite a few I'd say, and lets face it, were they ever meant to do really long trips, 50+ years on would you buy a Getz or simmilar if you were going to do lots of long trips, hardly think so.
Probably nil
So the engine / transmition layout dosn't count?
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!

donn Wolfsburg Elder

3,515 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·

#976950
vwo60 wrote:At least the Getz is a reliable design, a lot people do long trips because they are capable design.
It may be "more reliable" but then we are 50+ years down the track so one would hope so.
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!

cb john Wolfsburg Wizard

470 posts · joined Jun 2007 ·

#976953
Let's say, that in 50 + years there would be only one Getz to see .... in the Hyundai museum...if...😁

Willie Slammed & Awesome Dubber

77 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·

#977025
HappyDaze wrote:Oh yeah!!, and how did they shape up against "YOU-KNOW- WHAT" at Bathurst [Armstrong 500] in 1963????
Yes, took them a couple of years to sort out - in 1966 9 of the top 10 places at Bathurst were Mini's.
1975 L-Bug

HappyDaze Superannuated

2,887 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·

#977042
Willie wrote:
HappyDaze wrote:Oh yeah!!, and how did they shape up against "YOU-KNOW- WHAT" at Bathurst [Armstrong 500] in 1963????
Yes, took them a couple of years to sort out - in 1966 9 of the top 10 places at Bathurst were Mini's.
Yes, but they weren't Morris 850s...they were big-engined Cooper 'S' race cars, with Porsche baulk-ring synchro gearboxes!
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!

Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds

2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#977075
As Greg said, the Cooper S was a totally different car, with a much larger and highly tuned engine, and a much higher price to match. In Volkswagen terms, they were like the Type 3 1600TS (but even faster) compared with the basic 1200 Beetle. I am not questioning the Cooper S, which has become legendary.

This post concerns the little Mini 850, which was pitched directly against the Volkswagen on the local market, undercutting it in price and even being referred to as 'the people's car.' Volkswagen Australia introduced the basic Standard Beetle in 1962 in a (failed) attempt to match the Morris 850. People preferred to pay more for a Deluxe Beetle.

The Volkswagen 1200 of Barry Ferguson/Bill Ford defeated the Morris 850 of Don Holland/Lindsay Little in the 1963 Armstrong 500 (the Under-£900 Class A). Other VWs finished 3rd, 4th and 5th (Greg was fifth).

Similar story in 1964 - three of the four Morris 850s retired with mechanical problems, and the surviving Morris 850 was beaten by three VWs. However that year Class A was Vauxhall Vivas in the first six places! Both the VW and Morris 850 were obsolete as production race cars by then. Morris moved on to the bigger, faster and more expensive Cooper, while VW no longer competed. There was only one more air-cooled VW at Bathurst after that, a solitary Type 3 1600S sedan in the $1801-$2100 Class B in 1969. It got flogged by the much faster Datsun 1600s and Ford Cortinas. And the Lennox Motors Golf that ran from 1976-80 is another story.

amazeer Bishop of Volkswagenism

3,029 posts · joined Nov 2005 ·

#977681
well the basic beetle had an engine 40% larger than the 1963 basic mini so you would hope there was some kind of advantage. But it wasnt a runaway race was it. Was there not a mini leading the class until the last corner when it went belly up? Did any other cars roll at Murrays corner that year Greg? A bit before my time I wasnt there but I have a ye olde VHS video of highlights.

AA003 Custom Title Time!

1,189 posts · joined Oct 2011 ·

#977693
Phil74Camper wrote:And the Lennox Motors Golf that ran from 1976-80 is another story.
Didn't Chris Heyer also run a Passat 1300?
I read it on samba, so it must be correct.

Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!😂

HappyDaze Superannuated

2,887 posts · joined Jun 2009 ·

#977696
amazeer wrote:Did any other cars roll at Murrays corner that year Greg?
Yes Chris, our VW went over at Murray's...however, it continued to race [without losing a place], and was mechanically un-damaged. Not so for the Mini....it was not able to continue.

Performance-wise, the Mini had the edge on the Beetle, but endurance-wise, the Beetle was far better.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!

TheMiniMan Insano Dub Head

849 posts · joined Aug 2006 ·

#977753
What? i didn`t say anything :-)

edit-> ok youtube "Endaf Owens" :-)

Oh & my absolute favourit car of all time, eats nearly every other car it`s run against

Phil74Camper Head in the Clouds

2,703 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#977855
AA003 wrote:
Phil74Camper wrote:And the Lennox Motors Golf that ran from 1976-80 is another story.
Didn't Chris Heyer also run a Passat 1300?
Hi Phill,

There was a Passat 1500TS run in 1974, entered by Orange Motors and driven by Davis Seldon and Peter Webster. It retired after 101 laps.

Yes, in 1975 Chris Heyer entered a Passat 1300. This was because the classes were reorganised, with Class A below 1300cc and Class B 1301-200cc. A Passat 1300 was competitive in Class A, but a Passat 1500 would have been outclassed by 2-litre cars in Class B. The Passat 1300 broke after less than 60 laps.

For 1976 the 1300 Passat was back, driven by Bernie Stack and Keith Poole. It broke its suspension after 19 laps. Chris Heyer entered the Lennox Motors Golf 1600, co-driven by Peter Lander (no relation?). They wanted to race with a GTI engine and head but could not get it CAMS homologated. They had to race a tuned 1600 LS engine instead. It broke after 38 laps. It returned in 1977 and '78, breaking both times, but finally finished the race in 1979, 6th in class behind Geminis and Escorts. It raced once more in '80 but broke again (it caught fire in pit lane). It failed to qualify for 1981. From 1982-86, Chris Heyer raced an Audi 5+5. The Golf was sold to Anthony Healey and later Steve Muller.

Yes the very early categories at Bathurst were split by price - so the Beetle 1200 and Mini 850 competed together in the lowest class, £900 Class A. That's why VW raced the Standard, not the Deluxe, which would have been in the next class - with the same 1200 engine and more weight!

Yes the Mini 850 had a smaller engine but the cars had similar power/weight ratios and had similar speeds. In practice the Ferguson VW and Little Mini swapped the clss lead dozens of times through the afternoon. The Mini would usually lead down Conrod, and the VW would pass under brakes at Murrays and lead up Pit Straight. The Mini would usually repass up Mountain straight or across the top. They were often side-by-side.

By 1964 the air-cooled VWs were no longer competitive, finisjhing behind Vauxhaull Vivas in their class, and Beetles never raced again after that. The sole Type 3 1600S in 1969 was in the $1800-$2200 Class B, and got flogged by Datsun 1600s. After that the categories were arranged by engine size, not purchase price.

Who knows, with Holden and Ford pulling out of Australian manufacturing, V8 Supercars could die and we could return to this kind of production car category racing.

TheMiniMan Insano Dub Head

849 posts · joined Aug 2006 ·

#977868
well said Phil,,, great info too, thanks.

& yeah it was pretty funny watching the Beetle vs the mini, nearly 400 more ccs than the brick & yet pretty-well neck & neck the whole way,,, was a great advert for the mini i reckon

& yes the single leading 7" drum brakes on those early bricks were more like "Barely-retarders" than stoppers :-)

even the early 7" cooper discs were shocking, the later twin leading drums were better :-) & they were shocking too :-)