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1915 VW versus 2.5 V6 versus WRX motor

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Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#375
Baja Wes
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For those that wonder about the differences in power and performance of the three, check this out;

http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/compare.html


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blue74l
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I dont understand Wes ????
I know a few 1915's (Greg Ward for one) and man....that puts a shitload more than 100 HP out.
I know a few Rex's and NO-ONE runs ULP
For MY taste i would have the sound of the Webered 1914 ANY day
I would rather rebuild a VW motor over either the clips anyday

ok...ok...just not my cup of tea.........maybe we need a "conversion perversion" section

Have fun anyway


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Baja Wes
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The HP curve for the 1915 was taken from a Hot VW's dyno test on a 1915 with unported Street Eliminator heads, twin 44IDF's and everything else very similar to my car. So the HP curve for the 1915 is about right.

I know greg and CT have a lot more HP out of their 1915's, but they have spent a lot more than $2500 on them.

The 1915 sounds good for a vw motor, but it has nothing compared to a nice high revving jap V6, or the growl of a wrx.

The vw motor is 30's technology, it is now 2002 and it's about time we move forward and embrace todays engine technology
I had learnt almost all there is to know about air-cooled engines, and my brain wanted a new challenge. Now I am learning everything about EFI engines and loving it.


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blue74l
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Yep....cool....


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Che Castro
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yeah the type 1 and even type 4 engines are archaic, but i still think it's amazing how much power can be extracted from them


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Blown T three message deleted cos he is being very weird and acting in a criminal manner
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Baja Wes
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The VG30 is too big to legally put in a beetle/baja. The 13B has absolutely no torque down low, and would be way worse than the suby motor in the low down torque area.

I was originally going to build a supercharged type 4, until I started costing everything and realised how expensive such an impractical engine would be. Even if you do it yourself it would cost silly amounts of money. You would be hard pressed getting the cost of the EFI below $2000.



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Blown T three message deleted cos he is being very weird and acting in a criminal manner
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Baja Wes
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yes but even if you get it to work you still only get a primitive form of fuel injection, and the computer still won't control the ignition which you need it to do if you want to get the most from EFI. The EFI on the dune-buggy site is pretty rough, I speak (by email) to Todd sometimes. He has alot of knowledge.

Do you have a VAF/MAF or are you going to use a MAP? Either of those aren't cheap.

You'll have to size and buy correct size injectors, I imagine the commodore ones will be too large.

The EFI on a newer car's engine controls more than most people can imagine. If you go supercharged/turbo charged you would want a knock sensor and control in the ECU too.

The mazda engine also has, climate control air con, decent heating, variable resonance intake system (gives the broad torque band), knock sensor / control, air temp correction, air pressure correction, 90 amp alternator, direct port injection, and other goodies I can't think of right now. It seems silly to me to try to modernise an ancient vw motor when you get so much more for so much less from a jap motor.

But I would love to see your motor when your done. I would love to go for a drive in your car and I'd love to take you for a drive in mine so we can see the real world difference of the two styles of motor. each to their own





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Blown T three message deleted cos he is being very weird and acting in a criminal manner
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kruizinkombi2
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Very good page, Wes. Keep it coming.

Its probably not my choice of engine, but your rationale is sound and your research is excellent.
Colin Richards kruizinkombi@msn.com



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Bug racer
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I would have put a VR6 motor there . Or an Audi motor , just as long as it's VW !!


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Baja Wes
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trying ringing around importers and getting a price for an Audi or VR6 motor and you'll see why I didn't go for that option.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#562
The problem is wes is that you have a baha!
I saw a bug that had a WRX in it at the Nationals last year and ....man the cut in work for a full bodied bug!....

Yeah i can see your point on some things but a 2007 is still my dream.....and i can do it for under $2K as well.......
Wont have 044's that are fully worked but it will be potlically UN correct :P
Futue te ipsum!!!

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#573
sleepe3, I didn't knock rotaries, I just said they have no torque down low compared to the V6, which they don't. It isn't an opinion, it is a fact. A 13B would be crap for serious offroading.

Blue,
I think if you build a 2007cc for under 2K you will be disappointed with the performance. It wouldn't go any better than my 1915. The extra 92cc won't make up for the stockish heads you'll have to run to keep the price under 2K. I'm not trying to knock your project, I just hope your being realistic about your goals. Maybe you can take me for a drive one day when your finished, and I'll take you for a spin in the Baja.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#586
"I just hope your being realistic about your goals. Maybe you can take me for a drive one day when your finished, and I'll take you for a spin in the Baja."

Your on!

Nah i am realistic - my $400 special has a few holes with blow by in my 90.5's but Mick Motors will fix that for $435! :P

I hope to pick up a 78 for $500 or there abouts. Yeah ...no 044's but i reckon it will go but it will still be "stock"
I would LOVE to see your project when its finished but i guess i am a cheap skate that takes the easy road.....

My 1776 with HD clutch and IDF's has come in under $2500 so far .....put $$800 aside for the carbs and i will just be over the $2k mark for the stoker........
I just like "old school"

Are you taking piccies of the project?
Futue te ipsum!!!

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#667
Yeah I'm going to be taking pics as I go. I will be busy for the next two weeks getting the Baja finished off and clean for the Action Day show. I still haven't finished under the bonnet or made a proper bonnet latch yet.

You can follow the V6 transplant story at
http://offroadvw.net/bajawes/linktoV6.htm
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Bizarre Moderator The artist formerly known as blue74l

12,789 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#676
Wes

just had a better look at your site where you do the over lays.
The weight of the flat 4 is MUCH lower than the V6. You reckon this is going to give you any "centre of gravity" problems - specially seeing it is in a baja?

Hey - you never mentioned any thing about the $1000 for the adapter plates in your cost comparrison did ya 😀😀....yep interesting project but i will be interested in what it costs you in the end?

You selling the 1915 to finance this?
Futue te ipsum!!!

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#699
BT_3,

It was meant as a joke, cos you posted stuff and then decided you didn't want it posted so deleted everything to hide the evidence.

David,

That's a pretty wild baja, but it is designed for a different form of offroading to mine. American offroad baja's do high speed desert type offroading where you don't need torque down low. Australian offroad baja's are different and are used in tight bushland where you need low down torque. That's why I'm going a V6. If I wanted outright speed I might consider a rotary, and some ear muffs 😉
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

twobus Commited Dubber

72 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#717
I know it isn't a VW but iv'e got an extended port 13B rotary in my mazda E2000 twin cab truck which has a GVM of 3000kg and it doesn't have a problem with being gutless!
180 bhp @7500 rpm is still 180 bhp. an auto trannie helps but 90k/h in first 140k/m in second and I don't know what in top is OK by me. (my son wants me to put the 13b in our splittie but theres no way)

Cheers

Forgot to say that the 13b new from the rebuilders ex rx7 twin turbo with high compression rotors fitted and turbo's removed
was Exactly $2000.

[Edited on 29-8-2002 by twobus]

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#724
BT3, maybe I should put it in simpler terms.

100HP is all you can expect from a vw motor for $2500. Pobjoy 1915's make about 100HP and cost $3000+. I am comparing engines of a similar price. I know there are more powerful vw motors around, but you couldn't expect much more than 100HP for $2500.

A V6 commodore sounds crap cos it is a family car. Listen to the next FTO you see go by. It too has a small revvy V6 and has been described by many motoring journalists as one of the best sounding engines around.

When you tried to calc how much the Baja weighs from acceleration times you forgot about aerodynamics. That's what slows a baja.

As for air-con robbing power, I won't care when I have 200HP.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#725
And again, as said before;
I never said rotaries were gutless, they just don't have as much low down torque as the V6.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

twobus Commited Dubber

72 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#727
Well I suppose they don't have much low down torque! but that is what gear ratio's are for.
Although I do concede that they're no good for chugging about, but if thats your cup of tea!!

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#733
yeah I know sleepe, thanks for the link, it was a cool baja.
He just has different objectives to me that's all. 😎
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Bugged Again Wolfsburg Wizard

507 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#832
just cecked out your engine pictures and the V6 looks longer than the vw, does that mean you'll be chukking wheelies down the street:o

you'll have to get wheelie bars fitted!

look forward to seeing it at the show

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#872
BT3,

all you are doing now is showing how little you know.

Do you know how deep a type 4 engine is? The same as the V6. Whoa look-out better not put a type 4 in a beetle the sump will drag on the ground.

Pobjoys base engine makes 100HP. He has fancier versions but they cost more. another aust vw shop made a 200HP turbo vw motor, but it cost $7500 in the mid 90's, so more now.

Yes the V6 is longer, but only marginally. the parts that are longer are timing belt and accessory pulley which don't weigh much. The center of gravity won't move much.

Guys I have spoken to with MX6's say the V6 weighs 250lb. A type 4 weighs 250lb. whoa better not put a type 4 in a beetle, it will be too heavy.

All those things you listed, I will do myself. It won't cost me much. The overall price will stay around $2500. I will sell at least $750 worth of stuff from the half cut.

Plus I already have a bigger trans, trans mounts and CV's ready to handle the extra torque.

You can delete your posts now.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#917
deep meaning from centerline of crank to the bottom of the sump. Yes a type 4 and a V6 is about the same.

So you think you can build a 200HP turbo vw motor that is reliable for under $7500. I'll believe it when I see it.

Yes I am making my own adaptor and flywheel by the way. Even if I bought them, the total price would stay under $2500.

Why would you rechip the computer, the standard one is fine. You don't need to rechip the computer on a EFI car just because your running a different exhaust and air filter. Don't you know anything.

I was refering to the COG moving backwards. It won't move back much if at all. Moving it higher is fine, it is a Baja with a 2inch lift kit, the engine conversion will make hardly any difference compared to the mods already made.

I too doubt the 250lbs, but I will weigh it when I have it out by itself.

Your obviously just a very close mind person. I like all engines, whether they were made by VW or not doesn't matter, they are all internal combustions engines. I wrote the advantages of each motor. The VW motor has advantages, but I liked the V6 advantages better. I have nothing against any engine. And you call me bias
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Monsterbus Commited Dubber

50 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#929
A 2.0lt kombi box survived behind my 230hp V8 in the Kombi. Did end up replacing the ratios though for better performance. The Kombi weighed close to 1900kg I also ran 235/75/15's on the rear and had no trouble smoking them up if I wanted. Those Kombi boxes are tough. In a liteweight like the bug It should cope no problems at all.

Of course this is from my own experiences with a water colled V8 swap into a Kombi 😉

Cheers
Steve

P.S Good luck with it Wes, I personally think it'll be a great swap.

[Edited on 30-8-2002 by Monsterbus]

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#938
Thanks heaps Steve. I think the kombi box will be fine too. Especially if I stick with a relatively standard clutch and don't drop the clutch at 8000rpm

I still like VW motors. I am currently helping a friend build a turbo 1600 with a rajay turbo. We got the whole lot for $1000. It should be good bang for his buck, and is going in a lightweight manx as a street car. The same turbo 1600 would suck in my Baja. But we are realistic and know that we could not build a cheap 200HP turbo reliable VW motor. Not on our budget.

[Edited on 30-8-2002 by Baja Wes]
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1024
hehe as the saying goes,

speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?
Jon

baybuscamperkid prince of insufficient light, ruler of heck

4,316 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1088
1. Buy a bus, not a bug - $500
2. buy a subaru 2.5l - $2500
3. buy a conversion kit - $400
Burn rubber with a flat four that has REAL power!
Reimagined/Recycled/Upcycled Cool

Buggy Boyz

Former member ·

#1326
I think teh issue here is approach, Wes is talking $$$ comparison to achieve HIS AIM which is clearly to try and keep up with my Buggy. Now he can't go as high or track as well so he is simply going to go faster so him momentum carries him through.

As for the VW and power sentence... have a listen to what you are saying ... how much VW do you think there actually is in a $7500 VW motor, not much let me tell you. In fact there ain't that much in a $2500 VW engine. If you change the crank, rods, piston, manifolds, exhaust, clutch, dizzy, heads, valves etc etc etc ... when does it stop being a VW ???
Bang for your buck a water cooled engine wins hands down.
I don't reckon there is to many on here whop actually own / drive a pure VW so who defines the line ??

555bug WRX Bug Boy

1,123 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1364
<jedi hand wave>Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance<end jedi hand wave> =:-}

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1389
Smegma, Would you have that guys number? I would be interested in talking to him. I'd like to see some pics and details on your project too.

100HP in a beetle is heaps faster than 100HP in a baja. The baja is heavier and less aerodynamic. My 1915 was in an L bug first, and it was much quicker in that. The Baja definitely lacks go at highway speeds. It'll out run an old holden with a 202, but it will get killed by my brothers pulsar Q over 100kph. So I don't think 200HP will be completely insane. It will just be real nice.

As for the price, you either get things done with money or friends or hardwork. I have a lot of friends and am willing to do a lot of hard work. So I will keep the cost down. At the moment if all goes to plan it will stay under $2500. I'm a smart boy and plan on doing almost everything myself. But time will tell. I am keeping a running cost list on my website so everyone can see.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1436
BT_3 wrote:As for water cooled engines winning hands down, have you ever followed lemans 24hour racing ? porsche Aircooled motors absofrickenlutely raped everybody to the point they were almost banned, if anyone thinks schumacher/ferrari is dominating F1 then they should look at Lemans, try almost 16 years straight, yeah baby aircooled motors kicked some arse.
Man you seriously need to get your facts straight before saying such silly things. Porsche has been using water-cooled heads in their race cars since 1977. And despite the fact Porsche 4 valve a cylinder technology is a hell of a lot different to the ancient vw technology.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

volksrodder Learner Dubber

11 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#1498
This discussion is getting stupid, its his car he can do as he pleases. The secret to every good car is the evolution of its bits, if the modifications suit him then thats great, he's not forcing any one else to do it. As good as Vw motors are they do tend to get high matinence and temporary when used for maximum fun. Icruise so i use stock parts. Please stop the narrow mindedness and congratulate the guy for having ago, after all ferdinand porsche used heaps of engine combinations in his early prototypes, whats wrong with us doing the same !

Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1567
hmmmm... i think that doing such an engine swap like this takes a lot more guts. It will cost a lot less and last a lot longer, no argument.

Aircooled VW motors are antiques. An air cooled porsche is entirely different. Have a look at what about 40 years difference in technology can do. As far as i know Porsche air cooled engines don't really suffer from dropping exhaust valves.

Porsche used DOHC in the 50's. Porsche used one head for every cylinder as well. Porsche motors have developed and improved over time, whereas Aircooled VW motors remain essentially the same as their predecessors in the 30's.

jon
Jon

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1582
yeah I agree Jon. :thumb

I know some people are getting sick of the silly ongoing arguement in this thread, but everyone seems to be viewing it, so someone finds it interesting 😀

The thing about this conversion is I like it, and all my friends who I respect like it, and that's all that really matters to me. The purpose of this post was just to let people interested in similar conversions to see the differences of the various motors and make up their own mind as to which motor best suits their needs.

The fact that someone like BT3 tries to argue the idea is bad, and lacks the intelligence to put forward any logical reason is just funny to me. Finding flaws in his childish reasoning is good fun 😎
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1632
hehe i don't see why anyone else would really discourage someone from doing it if they know what they are facing... i mean it is YOUR car!

personally i would prefer a type 4, even though it is antiquated, i just like aircooled flat 4's cos they are simple and sound nice.
Jon

KruizinKombi Seriously Obsessed Cyber Dubber

3,493 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1634
I think the idea is great. Wes may well be the first person in the world to drive a beetle with climate-control air-conditioning!!
Kruizin Kol

speedster356 Plastic not Classic Racing

1,624 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#1649
Just do it Wes. Sounds pretty fine if you ask me. The Speedsters new engine is 1916 with Webers but just cos I like the sound and look....adequate HP but NOT CHEAP!!!!!
The Spyder has a Japanese Boxer engine with turbo.......more than adequate HP but CHEAP!!!!!!

The_Bronze. Minister of Volkswagenism

1,922 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#2365
"End of discussion"

Good. For the sake of civility lets hope he keeps his promise.

I'm keen to have a look. I'm happy with the Dog-O-War (71 Baja) as it is. It handles the beach ok I guess, Putts through the bush fine and turns a few heads. I guess the only thing more I could want is a fire extinguisher and a better paint job.

The Bronze. - As happy as a sow in feces.
Bronze.

Rathmines, Lake Macquarie, NSW.