That's heartbreaking Reuben.
I hope it isn't too long till you get to smile at your VW again. 🙁
vassy66T1 Wow ... are U reading this?
2,120 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Reubs 58....
Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard
511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·
Dude, that's gut wrenching!!
Looks like a rod let go, or maybe a piston.
Either way it ain't pretty.
Looks like a rod let go, or maybe a piston.
Either way it ain't pretty.
STIDUB Over it.
1,497 posts · joined Jun 2008 ·
ouch, will be interesting to see what failed 👎
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member 🙂
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
there's a clue......it's has run a big end.
Look at the colour and thickness (or lack of) of the bearing on the left..
Look at the colour and thickness (or lack of) of the bearing on the left..
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JVLRacing Custom Title Time!
1,100 posts · joined Mar 2007 ·
Lack of lubrication?...Was there no strange noises from the dyno run?
555bug WRX Bug Boy
1,123 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
I've done a big end before and you will be able to tell from the journal ans it will be out of round. My 2c is that you would have heard a big end failure before it let go. I'm thinking further up the line, gudgeon pin or a lean out on a single cylinder?
Either way Reub, that blow. Lets start a collection to get this fixed?
Stephen
Either way Reub, that blow. Lets start a collection to get this fixed?
Stephen
mactaylor Custom Title Time!
1,005 posts · joined Aug 2007 ·
sorry to hear ruebs, i think you need a tall glass of whisky.
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
1800 552 123
71-BEETLE-SEDAN AKA Josh
1,058 posts · joined Mar 2009 ·
looks like the timiing was bit out cause there is marks from the valves on the piston head.
Gracey Wolfsburg Wizard
511 posts · joined Feb 2003 ·
71-BEETLE-SEDAN wrote:looks like the timiing was bit out cause there is marks from the valves on the piston head.
More likely valve float.
I'm with Craig after seeing those big end bearings (or lack thereof) it seems it started with the bigend.
humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism
3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·
Totally bummed out Reub.... Feel for you mate....
This is the fear we all have with a fresh performance engine.... It is a gamble.... You never know when something catastrophic will happen....
The heads and valve gear look salvageable, the bottom-end looks toast.... The crank and three of the rods might be ok... The rest of the gear is all there.... Awesome work has been achieved.... Fit the 1776 of your mates, run the efi and cooling system as you have it, and get out on the road asap...
Enjoy it....
The love will return, and you will do it again....
This is the fear we all have with a fresh performance engine.... It is a gamble.... You never know when something catastrophic will happen....
The heads and valve gear look salvageable, the bottom-end looks toast.... The crank and three of the rods might be ok... The rest of the gear is all there.... Awesome work has been achieved.... Fit the 1776 of your mates, run the efi and cooling system as you have it, and get out on the road asap...
Enjoy it....
The love will return, and you will do it again....
2443TT Fahrvergnugen
962 posts · joined Dec 2002 ·
Its always hard to look past the carnage to identify the cause of the problem. After seeing these new pics my thoughts are:
Seeing the camshaft was broken I'd be inclined to think the valve/piston interference happened after the engine let go. Also, the marks look fresh. If they were old there would be traces of carbon hammered into the piston from the valves too. This isnt the case, so there was no issue with interference before it went bang. It wont have been valve float with the valve train setup that the engine was running.
Chances are that the cam was broken by the rod when it parted company with the piston. Once that happened, it all went nasty from there.
The rod bearing isnt a good enough indicator to see if the engines oil pressure surged or not. Its been hammered to death after punching a hole through the block, and after that al the white metal disappeared. Similarly other the rod bearing on number 2 cant be used as an indicator of oil surge, because after the bang that journel will have lost oil pressure and you would expect depris and white metal damage to that bearing as a result. The journels on the crank dont appear to be burnt enough either. Only the mains can tell that story properly, and even then there will be some colateral damage.
Based on these new pics my best guess is a lean out either to incorrect mapping of the ecu, or fuel pressure issue. It appears to have happened on all 4 cylinders, so its not an injector issue (based on what has been shown).
Look at the colour of the spark plug electrodes from head 1+2. While the combustion chambers are all pretty sooty, the electrodes look bone white. The blow up happened at full load/wide open throttle and it was shut down immediatly after that. Having a look at the plugs removed from the left head will tell more of a story.
Chances are the lean out happend that quickly though, that the electrodes won't be melted, and only the colour can be used as a guide. Whats is actually left of the plug from number 4 and if it got an oil bath will also be a factor.
Email me the ecu map Reub, or have a look at it yourself. Fuel values at 7500 rpm + max load should be close too what they are where the engine is making peak torque at 5100 rpm, or perhaps a little less as some tuners tend try to keep the AFR's constant at the top of the rev range. I tend to make it very rich 500 rpm from the rev limitor incase a gear is missed, and to keep temps down a bit.
Seeing the camshaft was broken I'd be inclined to think the valve/piston interference happened after the engine let go. Also, the marks look fresh. If they were old there would be traces of carbon hammered into the piston from the valves too. This isnt the case, so there was no issue with interference before it went bang. It wont have been valve float with the valve train setup that the engine was running.
Chances are that the cam was broken by the rod when it parted company with the piston. Once that happened, it all went nasty from there.
The rod bearing isnt a good enough indicator to see if the engines oil pressure surged or not. Its been hammered to death after punching a hole through the block, and after that al the white metal disappeared. Similarly other the rod bearing on number 2 cant be used as an indicator of oil surge, because after the bang that journel will have lost oil pressure and you would expect depris and white metal damage to that bearing as a result. The journels on the crank dont appear to be burnt enough either. Only the mains can tell that story properly, and even then there will be some colateral damage.
Based on these new pics my best guess is a lean out either to incorrect mapping of the ecu, or fuel pressure issue. It appears to have happened on all 4 cylinders, so its not an injector issue (based on what has been shown).
Look at the colour of the spark plug electrodes from head 1+2. While the combustion chambers are all pretty sooty, the electrodes look bone white. The blow up happened at full load/wide open throttle and it was shut down immediatly after that. Having a look at the plugs removed from the left head will tell more of a story.
Chances are the lean out happend that quickly though, that the electrodes won't be melted, and only the colour can be used as a guide. Whats is actually left of the plug from number 4 and if it got an oil bath will also be a factor.
Email me the ecu map Reub, or have a look at it yourself. Fuel values at 7500 rpm + max load should be close too what they are where the engine is making peak torque at 5100 rpm, or perhaps a little less as some tuners tend try to keep the AFR's constant at the top of the rev range. I tend to make it very rich 500 rpm from the rev limitor incase a gear is missed, and to keep temps down a bit.
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
maybe if the conrod was broken, but how does a complete conrod which is attached to the crank swing around and hit the cam.....it can't.
I think you will fine the cam snapped after a chunk of metal tried to go through the straight cuts.
My opinion of the sequence : seizure to the bearing, locks the conrod for a split second, conrod then try's to spin with the crank as its locked, conrod then smashes piston as its next in line, barrel then goes as conrod hammers it......At 7000rpm this would happen very quickly and cause this amount of damage easily.
This motor has forged pistons, and there is no melting of the head or plugs....this canage was not caused by a "split second lean out".
Whatever we agree or disagree on though, the fact remains that Reubs now has a $10,000 pile of scap metal, so what does he do now ?
I think you will fine the cam snapped after a chunk of metal tried to go through the straight cuts.
My opinion of the sequence : seizure to the bearing, locks the conrod for a split second, conrod then try's to spin with the crank as its locked, conrod then smashes piston as its next in line, barrel then goes as conrod hammers it......At 7000rpm this would happen very quickly and cause this amount of damage easily.
This motor has forged pistons, and there is no melting of the head or plugs....this canage was not caused by a "split second lean out".
Whatever we agree or disagree on though, the fact remains that Reubs now has a $10,000 pile of scap metal, so what does he do now ?
Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer
3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·
I think the spark plugs look fine. Certainly not lean enough to cause sudden failure. Running too lean will erode the electrode of the plugs, the electrodes look fine in what pics we can see.
If the cam died first then there should be a very bent valve. Part of the oil ring is up the intake port indicating the motor had turned a number of times after eating the piston before the cam broke.
If the cam died first then there should be a very bent valve. Part of the oil ring is up the intake port indicating the motor had turned a number of times after eating the piston before the cam broke.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.
matberry Moderator Go hard or go home
8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·
My vote primary cause of mechanical failure; big end. Cause of big end failure???
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Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber
366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·
yep burnt rod/ big end has picked up for sure
was that dodgy oil pump cover used ?
if so thats your answer
was that dodgy oil pump cover used ?
if so thats your answer
johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber
366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·
mm I see only 1 port is used
thats OK
thats OK
JVLRacing Custom Title Time!
1,100 posts · joined Mar 2007 ·
Does this not make people worry when engines gettin built to have them Engine dynoed?....
Wouldnt it be better for warranty value?
How many builders would garrantee there work?
I ask the question cause there is alot of money put into this motor...$$$$
Wouldnt it be better for warranty value?
How many builders would garrantee there work?
I ask the question cause there is alot of money put into this motor...$$$$
johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber
366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·
🙄
the big end is burnt
This engine would have made some nasty noises long before the catastrophic failure
IMO it should have been shut down much earlier
It would have been an easy fix if it wasn't run to destruction
the big end is burnt
This engine would have made some nasty noises long before the catastrophic failure
IMO it should have been shut down much earlier
It would have been an easy fix if it wasn't run to destruction
matberry Moderator Go hard or go home
8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·
Easy to say in hindsight.johny rotten wrote:It would have been an easy fix if it wasn't run to destruction
What oil was in it??
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
JVLRacing Custom Title Time!
1,100 posts · joined Mar 2007 ·
❗as above saidJVLRacing wrote:Lack of lubrication?...Was there no strange noises from the dyno run?
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
Lack of lubrication would have locked the motor, via the main bearings I would have thought.
johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber
366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·
no
the big end is always the first to lock when lubrication oil surge happens
the big end is always the first to lock when lubrication oil surge happens
matberry Moderator Go hard or go home
8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·
Yep, bigend fed from mains, so second down the line, and first to feel effects of oil pressure/volume loss.
#4 too, which is supplied by center main, which has to feed #4 and #1 bigends, where both #3 and #2 have feed from their own mains.
#4 too, which is supplied by center main, which has to feed #4 and #1 bigends, where both #3 and #2 have feed from their own mains.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
johny rotten Officially Full-On Dubber
366 posts · joined Apr 2004 ·
is it possible that crank flex at high rpm could cause low oil pressure or volume at that centre main ?
Then in turn Big end failure ?
Then in turn Big end failure ?
matberry Moderator Go hard or go home
8,114 posts · joined Mar 2006 ·
I hope notjohny rotten wrote:is it possible that crank flex at high rpm could cause low oil pressure or volume at that centre main ?
Then in turn Big end failure ?
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
Mick058 Custom Title Time!
1,580 posts · joined Jan 2008 ·
Thats crap mate - stick it on the shelf and take your time, or you'll just get frustrated and sell it all!
All the best Reub. Talk soon
All the best Reub. Talk soon
gaz58t2 Slammed & Awesome Dubber
84 posts · joined Apr 2008 ·
Well put Rueb
Engine is ready for pick up when you got a miniute
Gaz
Engine is ready for pick up when you got a miniute
Gaz
vassy66T1 Wow ... are U reading this?
2,120 posts · joined Jun 2003 ·
Good attitude and approach Reub.
Keep the volksy dream alive 😉
Keep the volksy dream alive 😉
humpty Bishop of Volkswagenism
3,336 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·
Here, here Reub.....
And have a nice time in Caribbean Gaz!
And have a nice time in Caribbean Gaz!
Craig Torrens 6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
8,040 posts · joined Jan 2003 ·
whats the autopsy on the motor?
Any update on future plans ?
Any update on future plans ?